I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt his.

And what had been "done" to Tarver or Calzaghe, or even a rematch with Hopkins, when those fights had been available prior to the Ruiz fight?

Jones lost to contemporary rivals who had peaked while he was still at the top of his game. Even Johnson and Green were old men in the twilights of their careers when they upset Jones. Jones elected not to fight Tarver or Calzaghe, or rematch Hopkins when those fights were available years earlier, and his current record against them is what we're left with. This is not to say he may not have had justification for failing to make those fights, but his legacy now has to bear the consequences of his choices.

Even if Jones had retired after the Ruiz fight, we still would be left with a lot of unanswered questions, given that he had failed to fight some of his biggest rivals during his run at the top.

Actually, Bob Fitzsimmons began his career down around 147.

 

I don't think it's clear how Jones will be perceived in 20 years. For example, certain wins, such as over Hopkins and Lucas, may be given more credence due to the fact that those fighters went on to win titles. At the same time, retrospect will show that there were a number of long-reigning titleholders in and around Jones' weight class - i.e: Dariusz, Hopkins, Calzaghe, Ottke, Jirov - and there may be even more questions as to why Jones didn't fight some of these co-titlists, moreso than when those fighters were still only compiling their reigns (this is where eventually losing to Calzaghe and Hopkins also hurts his legacy). People may not be so quick to excuse Jones for losing so decisively to fighters like Tarver and Johnson within a year of one of his best career performances. In fact, retrospective may well suggest that Johnson was actually one of his best opponents at LHW, given that he shares wins over a number of common opponents. There also may not be as much sympathy for some of Jones' excuses for not making some of the big fights available to him, especially given the fact that he later defied some of those excuses to make other, lesser fights. He may also receive even more criticism for his involvement in the WBC/Nunn/Rocchigiani fiasco, one of the most blatantly corrupt scandals in boxing history which later led to the WBC being sued into near bankruptcy.

Also, given the increasingly intense backlash against steroid use throughout the entire sports world, how will Jones' own positive steroid test be perceived in 20 years time?

 

i just wanted to re-post this. holy ****.

 

:huh

 

Rex Tickard,

When were those fights available?

Again, when were these fights available years earlier?

Tarver lost an eliminator to Harding, and then Roy fought Harding.

Calzaghe fought in a different country, and in a different weight class. He turned down the opportunity to go to the U.S. in 1999, and his first fight at 175 was in 2008.

In 1999 he said "I'm not chasing Roy Jones, I don't want tough fights."

In 2002 he said "I think I could give Roy Jones a tough fight. Maybe the toughest one he's had, but I know what my capabilities are, and I'd want to be paid the Crown Jewels to take it."

In 2002, Joe had two problems.

1. Nobody was going to pay him the Crown Jewels, because despite how great he was, he was relatively unknown outside of Europe in 2002. A fight between them wouldn't have been a big event for big money.

2. At the time Frank W was making enquiries on Joe's behalf, Roy's other options at he time were, Tarver in a big grudge match, or a Ruiz fight for a version of the heavyweight title.

If Joe had've gone Stateside earlier and moved up to 175, he may have had a chance of securing the fight for the big money he wanted.

But he didn't. Roy was classed as the best fighter in the world at 175, and Joe was an unknown 168 fighter from Europe, who held the WBO belt that wasn't respected back then. He was a nobody on the world stage.

A fight between them, was simply never viable during Roy's peak.

An earlier fight with Hopkins was there to be made, but Hop wanted a 50/50 split, and he was never going to get it.

The catch weight would have been around 168. Roy wasn't going to go down in weight to fight a guy who he didn't like, and who he'd already beaten, for 50/50. It was never going to happen. Hop turned down the 40% and was never heard of until Green had beaten Roy, and Hop knew for certain that Roy was finished.

I don't think Roy's losses count against his overall standing. He was past his best, with over 50 fights, and was never the same post Ruiz.

He beat better fighters than guys like Glen Johnson with ease. Glen didn't get a lot of credit for that win. I've never spoke to a single person, or ever heard anyone say, that they think Glen could have beaten him pre Ruiz.

The Calzaghe and Green losses were 4 and 5 years after his back to back knockout defeats in 2004 when he was 35.

Nobody cares that Calzaghe beat Roy on points, over 4 years AFTER Glen had dominated him and knocked him cold.

Calzaghe himself said that "Roy was a great fighter, but now he's finished, and a fight between us at this stage would be pointless"

He said that in 2007.

Also early in 2008, he said "I'd be disappointed if Roy was my last fight."

The win was worthless. Roy was 9 weeks away from his 40th Birthday and could no longer compete at elite level.

He did fail to fight a few fighters, but there were lots of circumstances involved as to why the fights weren't made. curcumstances and boxing politics rob fight fans of many great fights.

Fair enough, I'll look into it. Was that bare knuckle or gloved?

 

You ask me that, but then you basically proceed to answer your own question.

Tarver was a mandatory for Jones in 2000. The "final eliminator" with Harding was arranged at Jones' request. Tarver was also a possible fight for Roy at any point after beating Reggie Johnson in early 2002.

The Calzaghe fight was on the table in 2001 and again in 2003.

As you said, a Hopkins rematch was discussed in the wake of Hopkins' win over Tito.

Your post doesn't actually dispute that these fights were available, it only argues that were somehow difficult and/or undesirable to make. That's a separate issue. Very often, a fighter will need to make concessions and/or take low-reward risks in order to "solidify" his legacy (your words). To suggest that Jones "solidified" his legacy, yet restricted himself to easily negotiable, high reward fights is inherently contradictory.

Circumstances and politics may hinder many great fights, but an unwillingness or complacency among the participants is what often pulls the rug out in the end. There are very few fights that can be prevented simply by circumstances or politics if the combatants are determined enough to make the fight.

 

Rex Tickard,

That's right, but Tarver lost didn't he? If he'd have beaten Harding the first time, then Roy would of had to have fought him. My opinion on this, is that Roy requested the eliminator to get under Tarver's skin and it back fired big time. I don't think he did it because he was desperately trying to avoid him. He ended up going back down from heavy to face him, and he rematched him after the first fight. I don't think he'd have done that, if he'd have been fearful of him.

How was it realistically ever on the table?

Joe wasn't interested in going to America, or moving up to 175.

He was stuck in a vicious circle. He was willing to fight Roy for huge money, but he wasn't willing to go to the States to do any groundwork, to raise his profile and get people talking.

HBO were never going to pay him big money to fight Roy, because they'd only seen him a handful of times, against Thornberry, Starie and McIntyre. He hadn't impressed them.

Outside of Europe, he was an unknown fighter who fought at 168.


In 2001, he said after the McIntyre fight that he was looking to fight Roy and Hopkins.

What did he do after?

Nothing!

He continued to fight at 168, against the likes of Jiminez and Pudwell.

Fighting those guys in Britain at 168, was NEVER going to get him a big money fight with Roy, who was at 175.

Joe should have gone to America in 99 when Lou De Bella had the door open for him.


How was the fight on the table in 2003?

Roy was up at heavy, and then after he couldn't get Tyson, and Lewis had announced his retirement (not officially) he went back to 175 to fight Tarver, in a huge grudge match to reclaim his old belts.

A fight was never on the table in 2003.

In 2003, Joe was still in Britain, still unknown, and still a weight class below at 168, fighting guys like Byron Mitchell.

What concessions did Hopkins and Calzaghe make though?

It seems to me, that you're implying that Roy was the cause of the fights not being made.


Hop could have taken the 40%, but he didn't.

Roy wasn't going to lose muscle and give him 50/50, when he held an earlier win over him.

So that fight was available, but Hop refused the percentage.


Joe could have moved up to 175, and he could have fought in America to raise his profile. But he didn't.

He also could have tried to fight Roy at any cost, instead of wanting the Crown Jewels.

Joe never made any concessions to fight Roy.


So you can look at things from different perspectives.


If Tarver had've beaten Harding, and Hop had have taken the 40%, those fights could have happened.

If Joe had've been more willing, then that fight could also have been made.

I agree, but again, it seems that you're laying most of the blame at Roy's door.

I'd say that Hop and Joe were unwilling.

We debated last month about DM.

DM and his team were unwilling to participate in a double header to promote the fight, and they were unwilling to go to the U.S. and fight Roy for around $5M. They instead fought Hall, Harmon and Joey De Grandis for €1-1.5M.

Don King was unwilling to budge on the options that he wanted on Roy, for fighting his fighters.

There's lots of big meaningful fights that could have happened if other people had've been more willing.

 

Roy not fighting Tyson/Lewis/Holyfield weren't his fault either.

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1697&dat=20030608&id=YCgqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MUgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3355,898657[/url]

Roy first wanted to fight Holyfield, but Holyfield lost to Ruiz so that went out.
Later he wanted to fight Holy again, but that was cockblocked.

The Tyson fight got cockblocked because Tyson went bankrupt

The Lewis fight got cockblocked by Vitali.

 

“When I fought Montell Griffin, he quit on me, on the floor, I hit him with a soft punch and he laid down like I knocked him out, and it kinda upset me. I told him I don’t care what it is, just give me the rematch. And then I really had to teach him the difference between acting like you’ve been knocked out, and getting hit for real.”

“The knockouts did not change me as a fighter. I was more of a boxer as a heavyweight. The problem was when I came back to light heavyweight, I lost all of the muscle and I lost all of the energy. I was going for the knockout because I didn’t want to go the whole 12 rounds because my body was tired. I couldn’t understand why my body was tired and it didn’t dawn on me until now.”

 

Great post!

There's also more links on the free library online, and interviews with Murad that Percy Crawford did for F-Hype.

There were lots of circumstances involved, in why certain fights were never made.

Roy gets a lot of unfair criticism on this forum.