Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Seamus, Jan 18, 2013.


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  1. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I agree context is massively important, so putting the Levinsky victory into the correct context indicates he fought a man who Greb just defeated (something he did during his career apparently)
     
    lufcrazy, Jan 20, 2013
    lufcrazy, Jan 20, 2013
    #166
  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Dempsey was praised for his win over Levinsky due to its dominant nature, and the fact that he was the first to knock Levinsky out. The papers before the fight put forth the opinion that Levinsky was past his best, but do not mention the Greb fight in suport of this.
     
    janitor, Jan 20, 2013
    janitor, Jan 20, 2013
    #167
  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    It is a great victory. Just not as great as one over Greb would have been.

    I'm not saying that with hindsight, I'm saying that because Greb had already beaten him.
     
    lufcrazy, Jan 20, 2013
    lufcrazy, Jan 20, 2013
    #168
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    There was absolutely nothing controversial about it. In fact, in looking for some controversy connected with it all you have been able to produce is a one-line second hand source that indicates that fewer people than thought Bradley beat Pacquiao thought Levinsky beat Greb.

    Is it possible it was controversial? Yeah. But there is very, very little evidence to support that supposition. You have to wonder why, objectively, anyone would stress this second hand source ahead of primaries, or stress this second hand source in the face of numerically superior alternative secondary sources.

    Levinsky weighed 179 based upon what i have, but pre-fight the talk was of him making 165lbs. Hard to say definitively but does it really matter all that much? It was the second time Greb had beaten Levinsky, who, really, could insist that Greb was not a superior pugilist after that?

    There is certainly no press on his being weight-drained or anything.
    But is that not exactly what you have done?
     
    McGrain, Jan 20, 2013
    McGrain, Jan 20, 2013
    #169
  5. Rex Tickard

    Rex Tickard Active Member Full Member

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    Exactly the point I made earlier, although it doesn't appear to have been addressed.

    Morris was dismissed for having "lost 4 of his previous 6," but 2 of those 4 losses were also to Dempsey.

    It's as if the TS simply looked at Dempsey's record on boxrec, saw 4 red boxes and 2 green boxes next to Morris' name, and then assumed he was washed up.

    Yet he had scored big wins over Fulton and Moran only the year before, and had beaten Levinsky, Smith, and Pelkey the year before that. He was as legit as any contender when he fought Dempsey.
     
    Rex Tickard, Jan 20, 2013
    Rex Tickard, Jan 20, 2013
    #170
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Levinsky was a good result for Dempsey - it was a good knockout.

    It's just interesting because this is the first time Greb beats up a future Dempsey opponent and the opponent gets the nod. It also occured with Brennan, Miske and Gibbons. They were thrashings. Greb thrashed these men.
     
    McGrain, Jan 20, 2013
    McGrain, Jan 20, 2013
    #171
  7. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Boxing Addict Full Member

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    why does it take a disproportionate amount of trouble to defend dempsey's legacy on the surface? he doesn't have more irrational haters than other fighters, i don't buy that. i just don't get his standing personally...
     
    Nightcrawler, Jan 20, 2013
    Nightcrawler, Jan 20, 2013
    #172
  8. Rex Tickard

    Rex Tickard Active Member Full Member

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    This so-called "middling" run to the title included wins over two HOFers (one by KO), and KOs of at least two other legit prime contenders in addition to Fulton. Even some of the so-called "shot name fighters" as you called them were still considered dangerous.

    By what standard is that "middling"?

    His so-called "middling" reign included four wins over HOFers and two other wins over legit leading contenders, and was only ended by a HOFer. I don't doubt that there are valid criticisms that can be made of his reign (i.e: his failure to fight Wills, his lengthy inactivity) but by no standard was it "middling" either.
     
    Rex Tickard, Jan 20, 2013
    Rex Tickard, Jan 20, 2013
    #173
  9. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Boxing Addict Full Member

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    how many of the HOF famers were heavyweights or in their prime?
     
    Nightcrawler, Jan 20, 2013
    Nightcrawler, Jan 20, 2013
    #174
  10. Johnstown

    Johnstown Boxing Addict banned

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    yep
     
    Johnstown, Jan 20, 2013
    Johnstown, Jan 20, 2013
    #175
  11. Johnstown

    Johnstown Boxing Addict banned

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    yes he does
     
    Johnstown, Jan 20, 2013
    Johnstown, Jan 20, 2013
    #176
  12. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Boxing Addict Full Member

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    i think he gets criticized pretty reasonably but he's a polarizing figure
     
    Nightcrawler, Jan 20, 2013
    Nightcrawler, Jan 20, 2013
    #177
  13. Johnstown

    Johnstown Boxing Addict banned

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    how many heavyweight champions have ever run through a stream of hall of fame prime heavyweights before the championship?

    closest you could get to that is Louis...no one else
     
    Johnstown, Jan 20, 2013
    Johnstown, Jan 20, 2013
    #178
  14. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Boxing Addict Full Member

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    in his career, how many great prime heavyweights did he beat? at any point?

    who were his best wins? leaving out descriptions of HOW he beat people, WHO did he beat and what is their all time ranking?

    i've yet to see an answer that reflects dempsey's standing
     
    Nightcrawler, Jan 20, 2013
    Nightcrawler, Jan 20, 2013
    #179
  15. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    A "big win" over Fulton? You mean the chicken who cried foul while fouling himself because the fix was in for the April Fulton-Morris affair? Or in the September return when the rough stuff caused Morris to be disqualified?

    Here are some sample quotes from a Seattle Daily Times article, 1919 after he was beaten by novice Ole Anderson, giving evidence to continuing decline and/or inability to make it at the elite level. "Pertaining to the claim of foul that Carl Morris, joke heavyweight, put up on the stomach clout that Ole Anderson gave him..., let it be said that this claim of "foul" is nothing new on the part of the faint-hearted heavyweight who was well thumped... Great part of the life of the Sapulpa quince has been given over to receiving or losing decisions on fouls."

    Here is another one, from the Salt Lake Telegram from 1917...
    "Wonder if big Carl Morris can really fight? If he can it's a remarkable thing that in every fight he goes into there's trouble about fouls. A couple months back there was that business with Fred Fulton. Morris kept hitting Fulton below the belt and Fulton socked him back- also below the belt. Now comes Morris with a cry that in his recent fight with Tob McMahon .. referee Kennedy kept warning him that he must not his low, and said referee declared that Morris must have thought that McMahon wore his belt for a collar..."

    I don't find Morris to be some great threat. Before the Dempsey losses, there were consecutive losses to Miske (a very good fighter), Fulton and McMahon and shortly before that another NWD loss to Coffey. No matter how you slice it, he was losing more than he was winning and he was trying to get his work done by either fouling or claiming foul.

    Even the Dempsey KO was weird. As is readily available, there were cries of foul... which can be understood with such a quick outcome. But a few days before the fight, the Picayune is strangely calling for a first round KO. Either folks were aware of the little threat that Morris posed or there was something in the water...
     
    Seamus, Jan 20, 2013
    Seamus, Jan 20, 2013
    #180
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