Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

:conf I'm not in the business of measuring manhood.
He was a big boy though.

 

Interesting thread. The danger of these arguments is that it quickly turns into taking apart Dempsey's record or that of his opponents. This is a rather futile exercise that one can apply to any boxer, no matter how great.

I will say that having read this topic and going over the records/reports again, I'm surprised by how much Greb was always a step ahead of Dempsey during Dempsey's entire career. But then The Mauler was more marketable and more exciting, so he got the title shot, and capitalized on it as well as he could. I guess what frustrates me most is the almost propaganda-like approach in which Dempsey greatness is being propelled almost without question.

For me, it comes down to:

• His pre-title run is good, not great. The LKO1 to Flynn is bad, but many fighters will some black mark on their record. It's forgiveable.

• His title run is pretty bad, at best mediocre. He was inactive, set the world record for ducking the #1 contender (still standing 98 years later) and avoided Greb while mostly fighting Greb's leftovers. The only thing that keeps it at bad to mediocre is his longevity.

• A heavyweight should not do worse than a middleweight against common opponents. Greb pretty much out-did Dempsey.

How you weigh the above in ranking him is very subjective. For me, there have been too many great heavyweights after him to justify a ranking in the top10. I can't say that I'm an expert on p4p lists, but I don't think I'd have him higher than top50.

The thing that probably polarizes most people is that you'll see him ranked in the top3 for heavyweights and the top10 or top20 pound for pound, which to me is unreasonable.

 

As I understand it, it was mainly Dempsey's win over Fulton that made him the logical challenger to Willard. Harry Greb never fought Fred Fulton.

 

for those that say that Dempsey's run to the title was impressive... is that relatively speaking (ie: he beat the best opponents available) or impressive in a head to head sense (ie: his opponents match up well with anyone else in history). I don't see either to be honest

 

I find it impressive in a "how many heavyweights had a better pre title run" sense.

From what I can gather Willard was seen head and shoulders (literally) above his opposition. It took until Dempsey destroying Fulton for a standout challenger to be identified. There was Wills of course but it seems he didn't gain his credit until Dempsey was into his reign.

Only surface glancing gives me this opinion though.

 

Gene Tunney on Dempsey:

“Jack was no wild slugger. He was an extremely clever fusion of fighter and boxer. He fought out of a peculiar weave and bob and was very difficult to hit with a solid punch. In the 20 rounds I fought him – 10 at Philadelphia in 1926 and 10 at Chicago the following year – I never did get a clean shot at his jaw. He was always weaving and bobbing away from the direct line of fire.

“Dempsey was criticized for not being able to knock out Tommy Gibbons – one of the all-time great boxers. Actually, that fight was one of Jack’s most impressive performances. Unable to reach his clever opponent with a knockout punch, he was still a fine enough combination of fighter and boxer to outscore Tommy all the way.

“But it was Dempsey the savage puncher, the scowling attacker, who thrilled the sports world. He was a great hitter. His right hand to body or jaw was explosive. Even more devastating was his left hook to liver and jaw. Weaving and bobbing, he feinted opponents into leads, slipped those leads and jolted home his short punches to body and head. He hurt and stunned opponents. He knocked them down and, eventually, kept them down.

“The most remarkable thing about Dempsey’s fighting make-up was the shortness of his punching. His blows seldom travelled more than six inches to a foot. He had a trick of hooking his left to the body and then to the head in practically the same movement.

“In his fight with Luis Firpo, Jack floored the huge Argentinian seven times in the first round and twice in the second before knocking him out. Yet, of all the punches he threw, only the last – a right to the jaw – was a long one.

“All the others were short, murderous jolts and digs to the heart and the kidney and the jaw. This ability of Dempsey to generate such punishing power over a few inches of swing, without seeming leverage, traced from a quick power inherent in his unusual shoulder conformation, with its high and bulging deltoid muscles.

 

Max Schmeling on Dempsey:

Max Schmeling, always a very astute observer and commentator on the game, was asked to name the boxers who had impressed him the most down through the decades. “Trying to name them all would be a little too much,” Max replied.

“But, in alphabetical order, my short list of those boxers who will never be forgotten includes Muhammad Ali, Henry Armstrong, Georges Carpentier, Julio Cesar Chavez, George Foreman, Harry Greb, Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns, Jack Johnson, Ray Leonard, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Carlos Monzon, Archie Moore, Willie Pep, Ray Robinson and Mike Tyson.

“But now I want to add, all by myself, one more name: Jack Dempsey. Despite all the class shown by the others, Dempsey was not only my own idol, he remains for me to this day the greatest of them all. He was the big daddy. He embodied the complete perfection of a professional boxer.

“Jack welded brilliant technique and strategy with a stupendous punch like no other boxer. His punches came packed with the full power of his entire shoulder span. He was a nightmare of an opponent. He hated sharing the ring with anybody else. He appeared to be a fist fighter from another planet. It was no coincidence that they called him ‘the man killer.’

 

Dempsey is the greatest champ to ever shamefully duck his #1 for his entire career and drop the title to a light heavyweight.

 

Lou Stillman on Dempsey:

Gruff, strict and taciturn, the legendary and brilliant Lou Stillman ran his famous New York boxing gym with a rod of iron. The windows to the gym were painted shut and the only fragrances on tap were sweat, lineament and cigar smoke. When Gene Tunney complained about this, Stillman told him to find another gym. Such was Lou’s reputation. Gene thought about it and stayed.

Like Ray Arcel, Lou could be shy and guarded in giving his opinion of different fighters. One has to remember that such special men—along with the likes of Angelo Dundee, Manny Steward, Buddy McGirt and Teddy Atlas today—are constantly quizzed on which fighter they think was the best. They are so wary of getting into endless arguments on the subject. Many fans don’t react kindly when a trainer’s verdict doesn’t happen to dovetail with their own.

Stillman saw thousands of fighters over a great span of years: champions, contenders, preliminary boys, ordinary men just working out. But one day Stillman saw one thing he never forgot. It was the angry punch with which the retired Dempsey knocked out Tony Galento in a sparring session after Tony had given Jack some sarcasm. The sight and sound of that mighty blow being driven home was hard for even Stillman to believe. Right to the end, Lou maintained that it was the hardest shot he had ever seen and that Dempsey was the greatest heavyweight.

Ray Arcel was also a witness to the incident and recalled that the punch nearly decapitated Galento.

 

and that's fair: it's hard to think of someone who defeated a more clear number 1/2 contender than dempsey did in fulton. in terms of ranking, it's a very solid win and clearly seperated him from the pack.

even though fulton isn't all that much in the grand scheme of things he's probably a more impressive scalp than henry cooper was against ali.

 

Porky Flynn is the best name on that record.

 

Teddy Hayes on Dempsey:

Dempsey was the most perfect puncher with the most perfect hands ever. He was a very fast, instinctive athlete, a great natural fighter with perfect co-ordination and timing.

He could take a punch  a real punch  and not ever be aware he was hit. He was able to take fighters apart when he was out on his feet as he was in the first Gunboat Smith fight  like no other fighter. His hands were not just huge, they were incredibly strong and the hardest fists Hayes had ever seen. Every fighter has trouble with his hands at some time or another. Dempsey didnt. They were the perfect weapons.