Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

Burt speaks the truth on this one. The most important point is that right through his career, Greb was able to make the middleweight limit, in contrast to an Ezzard Charles, who fully outgrew the division.

 

Ummmm Burt.. I see only ONE great MW on his resume.. and that one he has a losing record 2. The other notable name on his resume was a better Welterweight than he was a MW... So no, his MW resume isn't the best thing since sliced bread like you like to make out all his accomplishments. Greb is a better p4p fighter no doubt.. but going strictly by his MW victories... he's not.. and really he's lucky to get 4th

 

Note that Greb's losing record to Flowers essentially comes down to two very controversial losses after he'd already been suffering severe visual impairment and was on the slide anyway due to his age and the hectic career behind him.

Walker was an extremely good middleweight despite being a better welterweight, much like Thomas Hearns.

You seem to allow very little slack; it's almost as though you're Boxreccing Greb's fights under 160lbs and counting only those. The point has already been made that Greb was always able to make the limit, so surely his three-pounds-over-the-limit victory over Jimmy Slattery (Hall of Fame middleweight and later light heavyweight) would count in his favour, just like Carlos Monzon's non-title bout against contender Fraser Scott would add to his list of reputable middleweight opponents, no?

 

Kurupt has convinced me. Harry Greb's record sucks.

Fraser Scott a reputable middleweight opponent?

Scott had only won two of his last six before fighting Monzon and had never really beaten anyone outside of a shot Denny Moyer.

I saw Scott fight four times including his fights with Monzon and Benvenuti and both were stopped prematurely. Home town stoppages if there ever were any. Max Cohen gave him a worse beating than those two.

 

K, so to you a Mike Gibbons, a Jeff Smith, an Eddie McGoorty,Buck Crouse, George Chip, Johnny Wilson, Mickey Walker etc, are not "notable" names ?
Have you read up on those middleweights so you can dismiss their achievments so readily.? Greb when he was on a roll fought every middleweight of note, regardless of colour, or style, bouncing around from town to town on trains, week to week, and not being able to nurse his
wounds so name me one of your favorite MWs, having the stamina, or courage to duplicate what this amazing MIDDLEWEIGHT accomplished in
his 300 bout career.? K, Don't you think that for Greb to lick the best MWs of his time, and defeating great LH Hall of Famers time and again, Greb
HAD to have tremendous skills, stamina and toughness, unparalleled in middleweight history ? If not HE, WHO ?.

 

Yes. Top ten rated is reputable. It was an example off the top of my head - I didn't think the anti-Monzon brigade were going to show up otherwise I would have embellished it with 'although Fraser Scott was never a world beater.'

 

****, it's just hard to take a knock against greb's resume. never thought to try...kinda glad i didn't

on resume, greb
on dominance and consistency of reign, monzon (or hopkins but c'mon)
on marvelousness, hagler

 

I doubt that argument would convince me even if Scott was a top ten contender when he fought Monzon but the reality was that he wasnt. Go back and check the ratings.

I realize ratings arent the most reliable but when youve lost four of your last six, and the two fights you won were against guys who had lost their last five or six bouts in a row odds are you either arent getting rated or dont deserve your rating.

Did you ever see Scott fight? He was a really nice guy but he wasnt much of a fighter.

His fight with Benvenuti was a horrible stoppage, not that he would have won anyway.

His fight with Monzon was a worse stoppage than Monzon's bout with Denny Moyer, which was very controversial.

He took a bad beating from Max Cohen. That fight probably should have been stopped, and definately would have been stopped in Italy or Argentina had Cohen been Italian or Argentinean.

 

I appreciate your passion here but it really is a bit unnecessary; like I said I grabbed the first parallel example that occurred to me to illustrate a point about Greb. I really didn't think I'd be pounced upon. Scott was at one time top ten rated and to me that is loosely defined as reputable. Don't make out like I'm making a case for Monzon here.

 

Mickey Walker was at his best around middle IMO.

Strong as ****.

And went on to be highly ranked at HW.

Amazing win for Greb.

 

Burt, they are "notable" names but nothing more. They don't stand the test of time is my point. They were somewhat notable for the time, but not much more than that. Now, when we take a look at their record.. their notability goes down even more. Much like Gunboat Smith.. Shannon Briggs.. These guys were both notable in their time, but looking back.. they really aren't in an all time sense. I already agree Greb is the better p4p fighter between all of them, and maybe of all time. Yet, we can't include his LHW.. and HW victories in that.. just because he still couldn't made the weight. It's like the Roberto Duran analogy I used. Should I say Roberto is one of the best WW of all time.. because he had some decent wins there... then go on to illustrate is dominate run at LW.. and how he fought at WW before SRL and could've gained weight to WW and beat people there even though he didn't.. WHY because HE COULD'VE? No.. just like I don't take his exploits and MW and conflate them with him being able to lose weight and make the WW limit and go.. **** if he was beating bigger guys.. he couldn't cut weight and beat those guys as well. You have to go by WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DID.. Not some fantasy hypothetical on what they could've done. Thus, Greb doesn't have a MW resume that stacks up to the top 4 imo.

 

His resume is better at WW, as well as him being more renowed at that weight.

 

Mickey Walker spent most of his time at welterweight avoiding Dave Shade. When they finally met Walker won a controversial decision. Most of his fights were fought at middleweight while a welterweight.

It seems like you are giving Walker credit at Welterweight for the same thing you taking credit away from Greb for.

Personally I dont see anything wrong with crediting Greb's record as a middleweight for going up and taking on greater challengers. It seems ridiculous not to give him credit for that.

He was a career middleweight. The fact that as a career middleweight he went up and defeated top contenders at light heavy and heavy should go to show how great he is.

Its also strange to disregard fighters he fought like George Chip, Mike McTigue, Bob Moha, Jeff Smith, Mike Gibbons, Maxie Rosenbloom, Mickey Walker, Johnny Wilson, Eddie McGoorty, Jack Dillon, and several others. These fighters were great fighters that were towering figures in their day and many remain towering figures today.

So in an era of weigh ins on the afternoon of the fight, or ringside, Greb and the opponent sometimes weighed 1, 2 , or 3 pounds over 160 for a fight at catch weights. Do you really think he couldnt make 160 or that the opponent couldnt?

He was a middleweight who fought possibly the greatest assortment of middleweights ever, possibly the greatest assortment of light heavyweights ever, and quite a few top heavyweights and weltwerweights as well.

Can we even come close to saying that about Monzon and Hagler who refused to entertain thoughts of challenging at a higher weight while often times fighting much smaller men?

I would give Greb credit for being a career middleweight who fought a lot of bigger guys much faster than I will give Monzon and Hagler credit for being career middleweights who fought smaller guys.

Bogs, Scypion, Hamsho, Bouttier, Tonna, Sibson, Lee, Oblemejias. Are these guys going to go down in history as anything other than a footnote on Monzon's and Hagler's record? Not likely. The names I mentioned above in reference to Greb, and many more he fought, all have legacies that stand on their own.

 

Tywin; your knowledge on Wilson's reputation as a champ'? Derided for not facing Greb, or a weak champion anyway? I've only era Greb-related material on him, please fill in the blanks.

 

I dont know much about Wilson but he was a champion. That has to say something. He beat ODowd who was highly regarded.

He also beat Jock Malone who was a really good fighter by reputation.

Most of what I know about him comes from my interest in Harry Wills. Wills was O'Dowd's stablemate so in looking over Wills Ive come across a lot of information on Wilson via O'Dowd and Mullins. Most of what they had to say was negative but in cross checking a lot of it isnt backed up by the facts.

Being a legitimate champ, and having won his title by beating a very good champ is enough for me. Its a lot better than anything Bogs, Bouttier, Scypion, or any of those other guys can say and I dont even consider Wilson one of the glossier names on Greb's record.