Marquez Defeating Pacquiao DOES NOT Indicate Pac Loses to Floyd- A Technical Summary

I meant his philly shell. That's why I said Manny's right hook isn't that big of a factor, I was talking about that weird power jab he throws in combination on an upwards angle. The shoulder is too big of an obstacle, Manny's right wouldn't land unless Floyd offered himself coming forward.

Manny doesn't necessarily have to get Floyd on the ropes, he just has to feint him so he's anchored on the back foot. Given Pac's power, those lefts were costly. But Floyd would probably adjust, I'm guessing the way I described, stepping left with check hooks and stepping right to have the left and on the shoulder. But it's one punch I've never seen Floyd really isolate. He screwed up Oscar's jab by jabbing with him, he took away Mosley's right with a high guard and left-right combos coming forward, he took away Judah's right jab and hook with left hooks, but the left straight is something he gets hit with even late in a fight. He breaks fighters down with body shots, but the angle is always there for him IMO. It's why Manny would do well to lead with the left and go to the body.

If an ideal Pac goes into the second half with a lead, which might be possible given his activity, I'd be interested in the psychological dynamics. I'm not in the camp that thinks Floyd is a scared fighter, but it's obvious that he suspects supernatural power and ability from the man. I think he'd be extra careful going into this fight.

 

*******s are a disgrace to humanity.

 

It was late. When you said right jab-hook I thought you meant hooking off of it. Are you talking about that vertical fist jab he throws? Would you post an example if there is one?

If Floyd didn't entirely neutralize manny's left if they fought, I think no more than five good ones would land before he limits its effectiveness. Sort of like how Cotto landed five or so hard jabs on Floyd then Floyd stopped that, but Miguel still had access to his jab.

The two moves you described I can see happening given what both fighters are used to. manny likes to lunge in with his lefts, and this would cost him. Orthies throwing lefts step in with it. Zab avoided overreaching with his left. manny often catapults himself with his left. Floyd being a master counterpuncher uses those punches to halt aggressive fighters. Morales had success potshotting with his jab then pivoting away.

manny's punch volume would be restricted by Floyd imo.

 

Yeah that's what I was referring to. Not sure this is the best example but it's one I found :

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Though after re-thinking it, I think Manny would have access to his right hook if he anticipates Floyd ducking to his side. Floyd does 3 things with his upper body out of the shell; leans back, rolls, and ducks down to his right. Manny is good at anticipating when a fighter is going to lean down and catch them with a left or a right.

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JMM started landing the right when he ducked down the opposite way as he pivoted leftward. Bradley never has that tendency, so his right hand was neutralized by Manny's movement, and started eating shots ducking down similar to the way Floyd might.

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It's that rightward movement towards his own power hand that allows him to get off at the angle while his opponent's right can't reach him. Pac does the same thing here to land a right on Cotto, and Ward does the same thing to land a left on Dawson. Both were planted on the backfoot leaning towards their power hand, and ended up touching the canvas off-balance.

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What's interesting is that Floyd moving to his right can work like it did against Ortiz, but Manny has more variety with his left. He can throw it overhand, or as a lead, feint with it downstairs and go up top, etc. I think it's riskier to move to the right than it is to move left like JMM did, eventually one might land just left of the shoulder. His height helps him have success, and it will be a great advantage when rolling off Manny's punches. Feints are the way to overcome it. Ortiz here also had his lead foot pointing away from Floyd, so he landed on the shoulder. Can't have that. Manny cutting off the ring against JMM serves him a lot better than following him around the ring like fight 3.

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I agree that he might still have access to it despite the fact that Floyd will be doing his best to neutralize it and will reduce its effectiveness. Manny won't be throwing 100 punches a round, but he might not need to. One or two hard straight lefts per round is a way he might "steal" the fight. I think it's a good mentality to have.

Like I said, rounds 5 and 6 would be pivotal. Would Floyd come forward? Like he's done every other southpaw? It's riskier here than it would have been any other fight.

Damn I always try to abandon this thread but you make good points Slickstar :bbb

 

I'm unsure how that vertical jab will help manny split Floyd's guard. If he does it with his lead foot outside, Floyd's shoulder will be an obstacle and trigger the timing for Floyd's right counter. If he does it with his lead foot inside, he'll be lined up for a Floyd right.

Floyd would have to be careful about bending rightwards. By now there's plenty of tape available, to aid Floyd in his preparation, highlighting how manny can catch you with a left if you do that. For what it's worth I don't recall Floyd bending into a southpaw left. I seen him get caught with southpaw lefts due to his head being static, or because they punched with him.

He wouldn't come forward as often against this southpaw like has done for others imo. manny isn't as long as Floyd's prior southpaw opponents, and he has a habit of lunging.

 

I've been over this a million times, but bottom line I see Floyd being too stationary to deal with Pacquiao , if we're talking prime for prime.


Nowadays, Pac only seems to throw 1 or 2 punches, so that'll play to Floyds favor. Back in Pacquiao's prime, if your not moving laterally or stepping to the side consistently, Pacquiao will swarm all over you.

Mayweather has shown time and time again that he has a habit of walking in straight lines.

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He's also prone to feints and he over-reacts to punches:

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A similar sized Mosley goes straight back, falls for a feint and dips his head into a left hand. Floyd would be liable for the same thing:

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Every time Floyd fights a southpaw he squares himself up and walks toward their left hand. He negates this by using a really tight guard, picking off shots, and then looking for the counters / holes:

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That's Floyd against southpaws in a nutshell. Squared up , fighting on the front foot, tight defense, upper body movement, and potshotting or looking for a sharp counter.




Here's where it becomes a liability

Floyd squared up , on the front foot, moving into a left hand:

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Floyd squared up on the front foot, moving into a left hand:

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Floyd squared up on the front foot, moving into a left hand:

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Look familiar?

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If he fought this way against a prime Pac, he would get beaten up, 100% no question. You can't fight Pacquiao this way.


I don't care how tight your defense is, even if Floyd picks off 1 or 2 shots, Pac used to come back with 3's, 4's , 5's , 6's, even while being countered. Go back to the Cotto / Clottey fights where Pac gets tagged mid-combination and keeps throwing.

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^ This is why Floyd has a big problem. . Pacquiao could eat up leather and keep coming right at you with sharp combinations.


And he was relentless:

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Bottom line: I dont see Floyd beating Pacquiao by fighting squared up, moving in lines, throwing 1 punch at a time (basically the way he beat Judah, Ortiz, and all the other southpaws he's faced, and which is typically his style anyway). I see that style of fighting being a detriment. The question is how does Floyd adjust or can he?

The guys who gave Pacquiao trouble were technically solid, but they were warriors as well. They had the guts to take chances and punch with Pacquiao, and they had the grit, will, and chins to withstand Paquiao's punches. Floyd has the mindset of a defensive fighter who does not like getting hit.


Today , Floyd in all likelihood beats Pac, because Pacquiao only throws a few punches at a time now and he just isn't the machine he once was.

 

Oscar stepped in with a jab to back Floyd up. Southpaw straight lefts don't cause Floyd to back up that way. Do you see Floyd being forced back by any of those landed southpaw lefts you posted? A southpaw straight requires more commitment to throw than a jab especially with how manny catapult lunges with his left. The setup and recoil on a straight left doesn't allow it to be used as casually as an orthy jab.

Oscar was able to back Floyd up through a combination of his size and jab. The only fighters (Castillo, DLH, and Cotto) to back Floyd up constantly all had at least 10 pounds over him. manny has neither the size nor jab, and Floyd would use the clinch to halt small manny's advance.

Once again Floyd doesn't dip his head into southpaw lefts. You can see that from the very own GIFs you posted.

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This gif was cut short a few seconds, but it shows Floyd making Zab's follow up left miss by dipping.

manny likes to lunge in with a "pump jab" as Roy said to set up his left. Reaching deep in with a jab in a cross stance match is a recipe for eating a right in return. That's how Marquez killed manny. That's how Martinez hurt Macklin.

This very GIF you posted contradicts your own point. Floyd isn't squared up there. He's in his signature guard.

If you watch the entire Oritz fight, Floyd caught Ortiz many times while on the backfoot.

He definitely didn't move into the first two lefts.

It makes little sense to see you accuse Floyd of moving into straights when it's manny who does that. Just ask Juan.

Morales and Marquez already dispelled this myth. Potshotting works on manny. Cotto and Clottey aren't potshotters.

Where was manny's coming back with 3s, 4s, 5s, and 6s even while being countered when Marquez whooped his ass in the third fight?

I see a manny open for being countered then clinched there. Look at how he raises his left foot up, puts it forward, and squares himself up with the hands down. That's a prime position to get clinched. Floyd isn't Cotto's try hard macho ass who never bothered to learn clinching.

You remember where Marquez was in the ring where he killed manny? Cotto can't fight off the ropes, and Marquez can't do it nearly as well as Floyd.

You know Floyd threw combos on Zab?

Now you're just talking out of your ass. Floyd is a master counterpuncher with the best timing in the sport. What makes the counterpuncher dangerously effective is he'll time your shots to hit you as your punching. This stuns the opponent and leaves them shell shocked as they're unable to brace for these shots. How do you think Floyd forces opponents to punch so little with his conservative volume?

Grit and will? Morales quit the third pacquiao fight. Floyd hasn't ever dared to even think about quitting. He injured his hand and returns to the corner saying I can't quit. To give you some perspective even Ali has thought about quitting before.

 

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Speaking of lunging in:

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Floyd lunges in / over-commits with his right hand pretty often

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Pac doesn't need to back Floyd up as I just demonstrated Floyd usually fights off the front foot against southpaws, which just helps Pacquiao.

Using clinches, fighting off the front foot or moving straight back is not an ideal way to fight Pacquiao.

I clearly showed him three times moving his head into a left. And the point his he generally walks toward the left hand rather then moving away from it.

He makes him miss then he backs straight up into the ropes and lets Zab tee-off on him, a habit that's he's known for.

Nobody said Floyd won't land right hands. The point is throwing one right hand at a time, and locking up on defense and moving in straight lines is a liability fighting Pacquiao.

They didn't just potshot with Pacquiao, they used a variety of tactics, including combinations, lateral movement, trading - none of which Floyd is known to do.

Again your making the mistake of comparing Floyd to Marquez which I think after 40 pages Bogotazo has explained pretty well why this is an illogical comparison.

Staying on the ropes in the first place is not a smart way to fight Pacquiao, and again Floyd is known to do this a lot.

 

Keep it up Bogo & Slick you know your stuff. Enjoy browsing and will read the rest ina few.

Been saying this but I'll repeat it, Floyd whoops his ass. Much better and much smarter. You cant beat Floyd being that impatient and easily hittable unless your power is G-man or JJ caliber. Still I do think Floyd saw something in Manny that would trouble him but we've been through this "whos ducking who" dumbness and obviously Floyd is the one and has always been in a better spot than Pacqiuao. Roger himself said you need a jab to beat Floyd jr.

 

Of course not; different fight. Marquez and Mayweather are both counter punchers but that doesn't mean they are exactly the same. One example would be how Marquez at times would go toe to toe vs Pacquiao. Marquez would use his offense as a defensive mechanism, to try and outset Pacquiao's barrage. I'll be damned if Mayweather would ever go toe to toe vs Pacquiao. Mayweather would just try to move the **** out the way or even hold.

I am not saying Pac beats Mayweather. Just stating that it doesn't necessarily mean it will be the exact same fight.

 

This is the dumbest **** I have seen on here in awhile. Floyd kicks Pac's ass prime for prime, old for old, whenever, wherever. The thing that pisses me off about the fight not happening when it should have is that I missed out on a huge payday. Floyd at even odds is something you wait for once in a lifetime.

 

Give a technical critique of the arguments or get the **** out :hi:

I think if Manny were as hittable as people say he'd have been stopped much sooner by lesser fighters than JMM. Besides Morales, nobody else has competed well.

In terms of the jab, I agree, but if you're an orthodox fighter. A southpaw jab may help but it's not aligned with his head in the shell. Ortiz was hitting a shoulder all night relying on a lead right.

No problem in picking Floyd, he has a number of tools at his disposal. It's just funny to see some people who so adamantly back Floyd trip up and generalize when confronted with real arguments.

:good

 

Which is different than how Oscar backed him up. Zab comes in wild and excited, just like manny does, in your second gif then gets halted by a clinch that your gif cuts off. Southpaw lefts don't put Floyd on the defensive the way a great jab can.

Nowhere near the extent manny does where it would be a liability in the fight. Zab wants to be slick counterpuncher and wilts under pressure, so Floyd came forward.

manny is a man of the people, and it's his downfall. His need for public approval wouldn't allow him to try being slick. He'll be aggressively and impatiently coming forward.

Ortiz, an aggressive come forward southpaw similar to manny, was countered by Floyd who was often on the backfoot in their fight.

He'll strategically adjust accordingly depending on the southpaw opponent. Not all lefties are the same nor is the left hand stance a style. Isn't that the pearl of wisdom of this thread? Styles not labels make fights.

I saw a gif of Shane with mention of how Floyd would dip into a left. He timed his roll wrong and moved into that left of Zab you posted, but he doesn't bend down into them. That's some Timothy Bradley ****.

He also has a habit of fighting off the ropes. Something Marquez demonstrated can be effective against manny last December.

What's manny going to do when Floyd lands a right and goes on D? Will he struggle to cut off the ring like usual as Floyd picks him off with the jab?

They aren't as good at potshotting as Floyd either.

Marquez had manny second guessing himself many times with the occasional potshot and 2-3 punch combinations. Floyd is completely capable at throwing 2-3 punch combos, see the Mosley fight.

If manny comes in the fight planning to walk through counters, he's going to look silly as he struggles to cut off the ring on Floyd or gets paused with clinches.

 

Bogotozo, is a good poster, but it's obvious at this point the fight is never going to happen.

If Floyd wanted, he could of had it anytime he wanted.

The ball was always in his court. At this point, it doesn't matter. The time has passed.

I'll always blame Floyd. He's the common dominator. If he was gonna do it, he woulda done it.

Looks like we'll be going through the same **** with Canelo.

IF he was gonna fight Canelo, he'd fight him on May 5. Why the **** are they both looking for opponents?

Just fight eachother.

Damn...

Floyd is the best at getting everybody to talk about some bull**** that will never happen. He makes money, but damn, I wish he would do what he says he's gonna do.

 

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