Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Saintpat, Feb 2, 2013.


Page 1 of 2
  1. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    23,533
    26,977
    Jun 26, 2009
    It seems a lot of people right Willie Pep as greater than the guy who owned him head-to-head in his own era.

    How does that work, exactly?

    Saddler was clearly better and proved it emphatically. Is there some other way to look at this that I am misisng?
     
    Saintpat, Feb 2, 2013
    Saintpat, Feb 2, 2013
    #1
  2. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

    7,766
    93
    Apr 6, 2007
    The argument in bullet points is:

    - Pep was never the same after enduring a plane crash and was in decline
    - Pep beat many more rated contenders
    - Pep's record is less patchy
    - The last two fights were indecisive (Pep winning third, retiring due to shoulder - fourth was a foul fest, Pep winning until eye injury retirement)

    Still, Saddler KO4 Pep has to be one of the all-time victories.
     
    Manassa, Feb 2, 2013
    Manassa, Feb 2, 2013
    #2
  3. Theron

    Theron Boxing Addict banned

    6,597
    35
    Sep 2, 2012
    Well maybe you can look at it as Willie Pep was in a plane crash and was thought that he might not have even been able to walk again, so when he went back and kept fighting it was obvious he wasnt the same fighter at all...
     
    Theron, Feb 2, 2013
    Theron, Feb 2, 2013
    #3
  4. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,432
    32
    Dec 18, 2011
    same kind of reasoning where mosley > forrest

    h2h is one thing certainly, but ranking is based on dominance, resume, performances, etc.

    frankly pep did better, longer against better competition overall in his career. saddler owned him, was his kryptonite but just didn't have the same career
     
    Nightcrawler, Feb 2, 2013
    Nightcrawler, Feb 2, 2013
    #4
  5. timmers612

    timmers612 Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,018
    416
    Sep 25, 2005
    Its that he didn't prove it emphatically. Sandy legit won 3 of the 4 but after losing the second was according to the scribes of the day being more clearly outboxed and beaten by Willy in the 3rd until the injury, and slightly behind in the 4th go also until Willy was injured after being thrown. If you added up the rounds they fought Willy was clearly the winner so to speak,,,,and so the discrepency. Their series wasn't like Hagler and Antofurmo had they fought 4 times with Marvin dominating him the last 3 times (had they), Willy was in command on the cards until the injuries during the last 3 bouts.
     
    timmers612, Feb 2, 2013
    timmers612, Feb 2, 2013
    #5
  6. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,432
    32
    Dec 18, 2011
    didn't zivic twice, clearly beat armstrong near the end of his true prime in 38? no one would rate zivic higher than armstrong. some styles man, some styles are just designed to **** up another fighter
     
    Nightcrawler, Feb 2, 2013
    Nightcrawler, Feb 2, 2013
    #6
    shza likes this.
  7. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

    12,028
    106
    Jun 30, 2008
    Plane crash.

    Saddler's wins over Pep are great, but plane crash. Pep winning the 2nd fight - beating Sandy ****in' Saddler after surviving a plane crash - is some freaky magic nonsense.
     
    the cobra, Feb 2, 2013
    the cobra, Feb 2, 2013
    #7
  8. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,432
    32
    Dec 18, 2011
    said it before, possibly the greatest victory of all time
     
    Nightcrawler, Feb 2, 2013
    Nightcrawler, Feb 2, 2013
    #8
  9. Theron

    Theron Boxing Addict banned

    6,597
    35
    Sep 2, 2012
    I think Pep is one of the few that could do that, that in itself if something
     
    Theron, Feb 2, 2013
    Theron, Feb 2, 2013
    #9
  10. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

    12,028
    106
    Jun 30, 2008
    You guys think 'nonsense' works better than 'stuff?'

    I went with it.
     
    the cobra, Feb 2, 2013
    the cobra, Feb 2, 2013
    #10
  11. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

    7,766
    93
    Apr 6, 2007
    That and circumstances. Armstrong's schedule was crazy at that time, his scar tissue was just waiting to be torn by a man like Zivic.
     
    Manassa, Feb 2, 2013
    Manassa, Feb 2, 2013
    #11
  12. the_bigunit

    the_bigunit Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,940
    19
    Nov 12, 2012
    Lol. Obviously the TS has never actually seen the fights.
     
    the_bigunit, Feb 2, 2013
    the_bigunit, Feb 2, 2013
    #12
  13. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    23,533
    26,977
    Jun 26, 2009
    The results don't support the plane-crash thing -- seems only Sadler was able to overcome him, while the crash didn't take enough out of him to allow lesser guys to do so. He was out for six months -- and presumably back in training for at least a couple of months before he stepped into the ring, so more like four or so actually -- and won like 25 fights in a row before he met Sadler. He boxed on for quite a long time after the plane crash, so the 'he was never the same again' doesn't hold water: if Sadler had never been born he would have finished out his career without another loss after the plane crash.

    The 'eye injury' was a cut -- something that happens in boxing all the time. The eye was injured in the course of a fight, he didn't cut it shaving. Yes, it was a rough-and-tumble, dirty affair, but it's not like Saddler pulled a knife on him. I don't see how stopping a guy on cuts while behind minimizes the victory, especially considering Saddler won 3 out of 4. The shoulder injury is another in-fight happenstance, not something that happened when he tripped walking down the aisle.

    Count it how you want, but Pep, a guy with the heart of a lion against everyone else, quit twice against Saddler. When Sonny Liston did it, people quesiton his fortitude and yell fixed fight. When LaMotta won the title against a guy who fought with one arm into the late rounds, you don't see people screaming that the win was indecisive and that a guy who died with a 111-4 record was actually the better man.

    The results speak for themselves. Saddler > Pep.
     
    Saintpat, Feb 2, 2013
    Saintpat, Feb 2, 2013
    #13
  14. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

    7,766
    93
    Apr 6, 2007
    Well it seems you answered this one yourself. It took Saddler to dethrone him.

    Saddler-Pep three and particularly four were dirty fights. Saddler thumbed the past prime Pep quite badly. They tripped up each other and all sorts.
     
    Manassa, Feb 2, 2013
    Manassa, Feb 2, 2013
    #14
  15. albinored

    albinored Active Member Full Member

    1,007
    16
    Oct 7, 2007
    ....the only fight of the four that didn't have the boys at jacob's beach thinking there was something with peculiar odor in the air was the second one.

    this is not to say that sandy wasn't a great fighter.
     
    albinored, Feb 2, 2013
    albinored, Feb 2, 2013
    #15
Page 1 of 2