Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

**** me....just watching some moore now. what a brilliant ****ing jab. never thought of him much as a jabber but it was great: sharp, powerful and he threw it with very little telegraphing

 

This thread, against all odds, has actually impressed me.

By modern standards beating Valdes makes Moore atleast an alpha claimant. I could with revaluating his worth as a fighter in his prime, Charles did he ever really beat a prime Moore or did he just catch a series at the right time?

 

The same could be said of Patterson during his reign, though.

Levinsky.

If you're going to go out of the way to make this many excuses, then of course you won't see the quality.

The same sort of "criticisms" could be made of Moore's HOF competition. Bivins, Maxim, and Johnson were all LHWs as well, with Bivins even starting his career as a MW. Moore's wins over Bivins came when the latter was on the decline following his loss to Walcott (after a peak Bivins had KO'd Moore) and most of Moore's wins over Johnson came when he was comparatively inexperienced.

Patterson could also be criticized the same way - and Moore failed to win that one.

 

that's fair but bivins, maxim and johnson all rate higher than virtually all of dempsey's victims save maybe gibbons. if you consider maxim and johnson at or near their primes then these wins are VERY impressive. bivins himself i can't say how close he was to his prime but considering his overall quality, it's a tremendous win. moore's competition can be criticized certainly but i feel dempsey's is a bit more open to it and his opponents, save for a few exceptions, rate notably lower all time, both p4p and at possible at heavyweight.

 

Willard wasn't a "come forward oaf," he showed a good jab and boxing skills against Johnson and Moran.

Nino Valdes was much more of a "come forward oaf," yet he still managed to give Moore a close, hard fight in their rematch.

 

willard did show a good jab and you're right, he wasn't come forward but cautious. by the time dempsey fought him though, i don't give him much of a shot in the least against a peak moore

 

That's a very questionable statement. Johnson was only in his first few years as a pro for all but one of the Moore fights. Although he was more experienced by the time of the title fight, he was still competing in his first 15-rounder, and his lack of experience and confidence over that distance showed in the later stages of the fight.

In the years following the final Moore fight, Johnson showed better poise, tighter defense, better punch placement, and possibly even a better chin in his fights.

 

Only 24 fights with no amateur experience is more than just "mildly inexperienced" - especially when matched with an opponent with over 100 pro fights. Fighting Bivins and Walcott (the latter of whom beat him) doesn't automatically place him in his prime either - rather, he was being grossly mismanaged and thrown to the wolves at this stage of his career.

Even 4 years and 30-something fights of pro experience is notably less than what many of his contemporary contenders had at that time.

In the late 40s and early 50s, Johnson had a tendency to lose poise and get dropped - not only against Moore, but also against Satterfield, Billy Smith, and Paul Andrews. The late 50s/early 60s Johnson was seldom, if ever dropped, while also appearing to be punching harder.

 

A change in opposition has no bearing on how tightly Johnson keeps his guard.

Moreover, fighters like Doug Jones, Eddie Machen, Eddie Cotton, and Gustav Sholz do not represent a "decline" from fighters like Satterfield, Smith, or Andrews.

 

I'm going 47-56 for his prime.

After the loss to bivins he seems to have brought it all together. Sure he got sparked by morrow but anyone fighting that often is bound to get caught cold at some point. During this time he only lost to Charles, Marciano, Johnson, Patterson, Hall, Morrow and a strange loss to Gibson.

I wonder when his physical prime was, not just his best run of results or his completion as a fighter but when he physically had all the assets together.

For instance I reckon Wlads true prime began in 05 when Steward took over but physically he was probably prime from about 2000.