Shouldn't Gene Tunney be rated higher pound-for-pound?

Tunney's adaptability sped up Greb's pugilistic demise. Adaptability was a hallmark of Gene's. And it requires studying your opponent and having the skills to impose a winning tactic on that same opponent.

Frazier, for example, in his rematch with Foreman, understood you had to box and punch George, but he lacked the skills to do so.

The better fighter gradually imposes himself in a series. The fact that Gene got progressively better against the great Harry Greb must count for something. Greb was not finished.

Actually, beating greats in their prime is rare in boxing. Greb and Robinson certainly did it. It's one reason why they're placed so high.

You can only beat who is there. This is why I look to margin of victory for greater perspective: Mike Tyson beat few greats in their prime, but, oh, what a fighter he was. The way he handled Berbick, Spinks, Holmes, Thomas, Tucker, Tubbs, Biggs, speaks eloquently of his greatness. Same with Tunney.

We basically agree on Gene's place in the ranks.

Naturally, prime Dempsey or Gibbons give a much better fight. But the record speaks: Dempsey is on the record questioning whether he could take Gene, both at their best. On the other hand, Larry Holmes, also on record, only wished he could have fought Holyfield in 1980.

The corresponding ring performances show this is all more than just talk.

 

Ah, go back and read your POST, you meant. Thought you meant go back and study the careers of both gents, which seemed a bit presumptuous. Got it. My mistake and my overlook.

 

True, but in the case of Tunney it doesn't require a microscope. Just a short look beyond the face value of what's on his resume. In fact there are many fighters he didn't face or beat from his era, and most of the "names" he topped were well past it.

 

Just for the record, I consider Tunney an ATG. Not top 25. Top 50

 

:good

 

One could also say the younger fighter gradually imposes himself in a series.

Greb and Tunney fought five times over three years. Three years after which Greb had over 200 fights, was blind in one eye, and a lot of ring wear.

Tunney by comparison was bigger, younger, and had far less ring wear.

The odds were only going to get worse for Greb as he aged, not better.

Greb had six fights with Loughran winning the first three and going 1-1-1 in the last. He had three fights with Johnny Wilson with the last one being the most difficult. Greb had three fights with Flowers with the last one being the most difficult.

Notice the pattern? All took place after Greb had been blinded and after he started going downhill. Not surprisingly in each case the fighter with far less mileage on his odometer improved on his performance as the series progressed.

Rewind and look at Greb's record in his prime and surprise, surprise you see that it was Greb who got more dominant in a series.

Greb wasn't finished when he fought Tunney the last time but he was rapidly going downhill and only had one more great "Greb" performance in the tank. Walker.

Tunney on the other hand continued to improve right up through his final professional fight.

 

Good post, with which I agree.

 

Well done LT

 

Loughran>Gibbons all day. Tunney and Loughran is much more interesting. Loughran, Tunney, Rosenbloom fly under almost everyone's radar.

 

Just off the top of my head, I'd place these 31 guys all above Tunney(no order):

Langford
Greb
SRR
Armstrong
Fitzsimmons
Gans
B. Leonard
R. Leonard
Duran
Charles
Moore
Pep
Conn
Burley
Louis
Ali
Johnson
Canzoneri
McLarnin
Spinks
Saddler
Ross
McFarland
M.Gibbons
T.Gibbons
Chavez
McGovern
Dixon
Walker
Loughran
Holman Williams

 

great thread, tough question, awesome fighter. can't add anything that manassa and surf-bat, despite and because of their great debate, haven't already said.

beat some greats but there's a context. an asterix all time great

his record at the top level comes with some scrutiny, but he still looks awesome on film

for the dempsey and greb wins, top 40. if they were prime, top 20

 

Gotcha.

I still of am the opinion that Tunney doesn't merit a top 20 placement but it's certainly subjective, as all of this is.