Shouldn't Gene Tunney be rated higher pound-for-pound?

Jack Johnson? That would be most questionable, I think. Chavez Sr too, but I say both Tunney & Chavez are rather comparable but I'd give Tunney a slight edge if I had to make a decision one way or the other. The rest I can't argue, though, which provides the case against Tunney being not top 20 material well argued.

Actually, Conn vs Tunney would be an interesting one. I wonder what a poll would look like (Ranking wise, not H2H).

 

If you want to be like that ignorant majority, fine.
My point was, anybody who researches McFarland, can only move him toward the top of the list, not vice versa.
From your list it could be understood that it was an old one, where you still had him around #15, but in a latter version he dropped lower.

 

Rated higher than who?..guys like Dempsey..Willard or Jackson?...Cause other than That who can you put up against him?..Without Tunney gettin destroyed!?

 

I actually think Tunney could give my number 1 Heavy, Joe Louis fits. He has the brains, discipline, movement, toughness, punches to worry Joe like few others.

 

True, but he doesn't have the experience against Class-A punchers to show me that he has the chin to take the bombs that the quick handed Louis WILL detonate off of his jaw. Tunney wasn't as hard to hit as people seem to think

 

Agree, you'll notice I didn't cite defence per se as a big Tunney plus. But I think I'm right in saying that only Dempsey(?) floored Gene and he did get up. I know he didn't face the biggest of punchers but his resistance is more proven than any vurnerability if you follow me. If Farr, Pastor, Schmeling and Conn could trouble Louis maybe, just maybe so could Tunney.

 

Sure. But, sorry, your examples are not accurate:

Greb did NOT win the first three Loughran meetings. Moreover, Greb LOST to Loughran the same year Greb became middleweight champion. Why? Because, after 3 fights, Loughran--Tunney-like in his study of boxing--learned to adjust, proving my point. Loughran learned to move in on Greb, hitting him before he could get set.

Wilson? Inaccurate again. Wilson was older, turned pro earlier, and was no slouch as a busy fighter himself, with some 121 recorded bouts. Greb was just a bit better.

By the last two Flowers fights, Greb was done.

Age is not everything; size is not everything. In a series, the better fighter tends to prevail. Look at Márquez and Pacquiao. Márquez is much older, has more wear, yet has progressively, comprehensively, emphatically proven the better man. Why? Because Juan--another Tunney-like pugilism student--has adjusted to master his foe.

See the pattern?

Bottom line, Tunney must get credit for LEARNING, AD******G and MASTERING the hallowed Greb, sure, with the caveat of Greb's size and wear. Had Tunney not been Tunney, he'd have succumbed to Greb, regardless of Greb's greater wear: it took a Leonard to take Hagler; a Pryor to defeat Argüello; a Michael Spinks to beat Holmes.

Greb alone does not make Tunney. Tunney's whole career proves he was a genius of the ring and he's in my top 30.

 

Have no idea why site refuses to spell: "AD******G" in my last paragraph above.

 

The Bieber effect! Guess ****** is forbidden in these parts!

 

Actually, he did:

Harry Greb:

1922-07-10 Tommy Loughran Philadelphia, US W NWS 8

1923-01-15 Tommy Loughran Pittsburgh, US W NWS 10

1923-01-30 Tommy Loughran New York, US W UD 15

 

And after 4 fights, one of which he won, Loughran STILL was losing to Greb:

1923-12-25 Tommy Loughran Pittsburgh, US W PTS 10


You couldn't "adjust" to Harry Greb. No one could and no one did.

 

I'm assuming you've read the next-day newspaper reports from the cities in which their fights took place. If so you would clearly have seen that Tunney did NOT "adjust and master" Greb at any point.

Think about this- if Gene was so good at ad******g, learning and mastering Greb then why was their 4th fight a draw? This took place after 3 fights of 15 rounds, a grand total of 45 rounds, and yet the 4th fight is a draw that most thought Greb won. If Gene is so much the adjuster and master that you say he is, he should have been handing Greb a pasting at this point. He didn't.

Also keep in mind that Greb had 33 fights (not counting the 3 Tunney bouts) in the 3 years in between their first bout and this bout, more than enough time for the supposedly brilliant-minded Tunney to observe him in action against others and concoct a plan to "master" him. Again he didn't, as this fight shows beyond a shadow of a doubt.


The only fight he clearly dominated was their final fight in St. Paul. I have the report from the St. Paul newspapers and it clearly shows that it was more a case of Greb being on the downslide and Tunney ascending than any "figuring out" or "mastery" Gene finally achieved over Greb. Tunney fought Greb no differently than he always had. It's just that this time Gene was much bigger, on the rise and Greb on the descent.

The scribes of the day were more concerned over how badly Greb had aged and lost a step.

So what you're saying is completely inaccurate.( No disrespect intended :smoke)

Ringsider Tommy Gibbons made the following observation: "Tunney was handicapped by Greb's unusual style. Greb is absolutely unorthodox in his fighting and every fighter who meets him is up against a different proposition than with other boxers. On the other hand it must be remembered that Greb was 14 pounds under Tunney's weight and he deserves credit or fighting as well as he did against a man so much heavier."

 

Sorry. A "newspaper win" is not the same as a "win" Your post confirms this.

 

Sorry, but this is inaccurate.

Any smart fighter can adjust to his opponent, with varying degrees of success. This is elementary.

I quote William Celano (website Suite 101): "What made Gene Tunney great was his innate ability to study and learn his opponents' styles and then to capitalize on their weaknesses. He took the advice of veteran champion Benny Leonard who told Tunney to forget about hitting Greb in the head, rather, 'work the body'. In the 2nd fight, Tunney punished Greb with a constant body attack, while finishing up the flurries with 1, 2 combinations to the head. When Greb would charge and swarm, Tunney would utilize fancy footwork to elude Greb and then jab his face when he 'came in'. Tunney backed Greb into the ropes repeatedly and pounded his body. At one point, Tunney fired a shot to Greb's solar plexis, nearly bringing the champ to his knees. In other words, Tunney 'busted Greb up'.

I quote Tommy Loughran (Heller): "Everybody he (Greb) fought backed up, and I didn't. I moved in on him. I got him before he got a chance to get set and I don't think he ever figured that out. He never figured out what I was doing. Soon as we'd come out there I was in on top of him before he could get set, get going. Then I would get back and I would catch his punches, because they were all hooks, and the only thing I had to watch was his head, that he didn't butt. Of course, I could have stopped that with an uppercut, but if you do that you expose yourself to a hook, and he was a hooker and consequently I wouldn't take any chances. He had extraordinary ability along the lines of endurance. He never seemed to run out of wind. The last 5 rounds I murdered him. And I learned from that, that's why I liked to fight 15-round bouts."

This is adjustment, successful adjustment.

The fact that these men didn't blow Greb away--or still lost to him--does not negate the equally true fact that Tunney and Loughran adjusted to the Windmill and met with success.