More Impressive: Calzaghe - Kessler or Ward - Kessler?

Consistency is a measure of a fighters ability to regularly perform at a high level against solid opposition. Cazaghe having more wins against journeyman in no way makes him better in this category.

Ward has fought a tall rangy southpaw. Calzaghe made a point of missing that style

Unorthodox boxer/puncher. Calzaghe turned down the Froch fight.

Calzaghe also made a point of missing pressure fighters like Pavlik, D.M and Johnson. So he has more wins but he made a point of missing styles which he knew he would struggle against.

Think smw

Calzaghe:
The wbo belt which he had was equivalent to having a IBO belt. It didn't even become a fully recognized belt until around 04-05. No long reigning wbo champion has even made the ibhof.

He unified with Lacy(ibf) made one defense against Bika
Unified with Kessler(wba, wbc) made 0 defenses

Ward:
Ward was the winner of the ss. And that is an amazing accomplishment especially when he entered as a smw prospect.

Voted fighter of 2011

wba champion: 4 defenses
unified wba, wbc chapion: 1 defense

Accomplishments: Ward:good

 

Highlighting opponents missed is important because you tend to notice if a fighter is making a point of missing styles

http://www.ultimateboxingresults.com/interviews/details.asp?in_id=124

1: Bute worked his way up the WBO rankings, when Calzaghe was the champion. I'm sure Calzaghe could of gave him a shot instead of Bika and Evans Ashira.

2: Calzaghe needed to fight Bute in order to become the undisputed smw champion. He never cleared out his division

3: Calzaghe dismissed Bute as an opponent. His not a big name said Calzaghe.

-Most of Calzaghe's opponents at smw were unknown journeyman, but he still fought them.

-Hopkins, Hagler, Jones and Tyson all unified by fighting lesser known champions.

-Calzaghe missed ever tall rangy southpaw in every division he fought in

I've also asked you why you claimed the Liles fight was not viable and you never responded, which was why I posted up a picture of an elephant in the room.

When Calzaghe became the wbo champion Liles was:
-Recognized as the best fighter at smw
-was a long reigning champion, with a recognized belt
-fights were screened by Showtime and Sky

Calzaghe on the flip side had a lightly recognized belt and was unknown in America. If the emphasis was on anyone to make the fight it should of been Calzaghe

Either way Liles tried to make fights with Jones(ibf), Benn(wbc), Woodhall(wbc) and Collins(wbo). So is there a possibility he tried to make a fight with Calzaghe? Sure. He had no reason to fear him. He fought Nunn(tall rangy southpaw) and spent years trying to fight Jones (prime atg)

Calzaghe during this period said he wanted no tough fights and did not want to fight any good fighters.

He also made a point of missing tall rangy southpaws.

So even if Liles did try to make a fight I think I can safely say that Calzaghe would of turned it down.

ok

ok

ps: Dawson is not a draw, his own fault, but HBO are willing to pay a lot of money for his fights. It's always been their policy to pay way above the market value for fights, for some strange reason.

 

??

Where was there mention of just at SMW?

DOM5153 stated;

To which I responded;

At which point you obviously took umbrage with my comment. There was no mention of just at SMW so I don't see why you've discarded the win over Hopkins

You said it yourself, Dawson was dead at the weight

Possibly because he was younger, unbeaten and had been facing a better level of competition. Oh, and just the fact he was better - which you can tell from watching both fights (well just about anyone but you and maybe dinovelvet can tell ) What difference does being a prospect make? A win is rated on the quality of the fighter you beat - both wins = very good, Calzaghe's win is a bit better for me and most others, the only people who say Ward's win is better are generally Calzaghe haters


Kessler's last 3 opponents prior to facing Calzaghe:

Librado Andrade
Markus Beyer
Eric Lucas

Kessler last 3 opponents prior to facing Ward:

Gusmyr Pedormo
Danilo Haussler
Dimitri Sartison

I'd rate Eubank higher personally, but it's a matter of opinion

Not really, as you said, Dawson was dead at the weight. Abraham is a better win than Dawson as 168, Dawson is a LHW, I don't think we'll see him fight again at SMW and for good reason

What difference does this make? Calzaghe beat Bika more clearly and beat him before Ward

I notice you're forgetting (or maybe you didn't know) that Eubank was in training to fight on the same night, so I don't think the 11 days notice is a huge excuse, it's not like he was rusty, had sat at home doing nothing for months and then got a call out of the blue to fight. He'd been in training camp, done the hard sparring, he was ready to fight. Joe also took the fight on 11 days notice

So?

So?

What's your point here? Beyond Kessler, Froch, Abraham, Bika, Dawson, does Ward have better wins than these guys who were top 10 ranked SMW's when Joe beat them? I never made out they were a murderers row of challengers , but clearly Calzaghe's record has more depth.

Kessler's wins after Calzaghe going into the Ward fight:

Pedormo, Sartisan, Haussler

Kessler's last meaningful fight before Ward was against Calzaghe, which he lost.

Abraham's run going into the Ward fight:

Loss to Dirrell
Damaging loss to Froch
beat a journeyman


Going down this route doesn't exactly favour Ward's wins over Kessler or Abraham - not that I'm knocking them, they're both very good wins. I'm just showing how flawed your logic can be

Calzaghe also has Hopkins and Eubank :good

 

We're talking about achievements, stay on topic

I find it amusing that you've used this logic So I ask you what effort did Bute make to get a fight with Joe Calzaghe, and you post up an interview quote when he was already obligated to fight Berrio atsch

Did Bute and his team:

Ever make a solid offer to Calzaghe's team?


Ever call out Joe Calzaghe after one of their fights?


Why would Joe be concerned with the IBF belt? He had already won and vacated it. Bute or Hopkins and Kessler? Hopkins and Kessler were the better fighters, who brought more money to the table :deal

Unknown journeyman could be fighters brought in as last minute subs (Pudwill, Mcintyre)
Tune ups (Ashira)
Willing to accept small purses - Bika

True

Why are you asking me? You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you not me. So basically, what you've written below just seems to be your opinion as you have nothing else.

It's not like you to make claims without being able to back them up with some solid evidence.

The chances are Liles probably hardly knew who Calzaghe was, wasn't interested in the WBO belt and was looking to make big paydays, which he probably wouldn't have thought he'd make fighting Joe - that's my opinion on it.

 

Consistency:

46 fights unbeaten

28 fights unbeaten

The winner is the guy with 18 more fights and a longer career

Eubank - Unorthodox boxer/puncher

Pressure fighters:

Lacy
Kessler


On a side note, most long reigning champions will have missed opponents - it's part of boxing, very very rarely do we get a Champion like Ali who fights everyone

Why think SMW? So you can disregard one of Joe's best wins and achievements? :good

Ward - WBA and WBC SMW Champion

Calzaghe - WBA, WBC, IBF and WBO SMW Champion and Ring Magazine LHW Champion (no.1 LHW in the world)

 

I can't comment for Dom, but I was referring to their respective smw reigns

cutting weight affected him, no doubt. Its the reason why I see it as a good win, rather than a great win. Has to be classed as better than a win over Abraham who was something like 1-2 going into the Ward fight and yet to beat a live body.

The fact that he was younger by 2 years does not mean much, especially when he was still in his physical prime going into the Ward fight. If he was past 35 then you would have a case.

The fact that he was unbeaten means nothing. He hadn't fought anyone so he should of been unbeaten. He would of still lost to win even if he had missed Calzaghe

The only opponent on Kessler resume worth mentioning is Froch and he got that win post Ward.

How?

It makes a world of difference because he was an untested novice who really had no business beating a seasoned pro. Where the fighter himself is affects the grade of the win. Ali was past prime when he beat Foreman which makes that win even better.

And what has that got to do with anything? The fact is he would get his best win post Ward. Beyer, Lucas and Andrade were nothing special.

He lost his last 5 fights against relevant opposition.
He had to cut weight on 11 days notice, he would of been even more weight drained than Dawson who would of had 6 weeks to prepare.

Dawson might of been drained because he had outgrown the division or because he cut weight wrong. Either way a win over a guy coming off a loss who has achieved nothing since doesn't mean much.

1: Two very different Bika's.
2: So what if Calzaghe had beat him first? Bika has not beat anyone worth mentioning.

What do you mean so? How on earth can a win over that guy mean anything. Calzaghe's win over Silvio Branco was a better win

 

So being 25 and younger makes Kessler better.?
He was inexperienced back then , and like Froch he has matured and developed into a better fighter with undeniable improvements in accuracy and power.
He fought nobody before Joe and only stepped up after Joe.
Nobody on his record pre Joe is nowhere near as good as Froch.
He also went onto beat Froch who Joe shamefully ducked.
Since the Ward loss he has been an unstoppable wrecking machine.
Kessler is in his my prime now.
Anybody who say Joe beat the best Kessler is wrong. Of that you can be sure.

 

Thanks Zod and KO for contributing to this thread.. It has been a good read.:good

 

Calzaghe was trailing until about rounds 6-7 and even said that for the first time in his carreer he thought he would lose. Until he saw Kessler breathing heavily in round 7. Since he felt he had plenty of energy he turned up the pace an that changed the fight completely.

This was a fight at a far higher level that Kesser-Ward.

Ward won but it was an ugly ugly fight with almost a 100 initiated clinches from Ward (enough to get boxers disqualified 3-4 times over, and several vicious headbutts and so on. Horribly ugly and dirty thing.. On paper a great win, but in reality and bad night for boxing.

 

No being 25 and much fresher makes Kessler better, he wasnt inexperienced and had already beaten a good few solid fighters at the weight. Improvement in accuracy, stop being a tit, what little he may have gained in power has been lost because his timing isnt as sharp. Unstoppable wrecking machineatsch, wtf are you on about, are you trying to prop up Ward's resume, its already very strong it doesnt need that kind of bull****. Perhaps a bit of perspective for you is that Kessler got dropped by ****ing Green. He's faded and not nearly as effective as he once was. Seriously your post reeks of complete utter bull****. Wards win is good, Calzaghe's win is outright better. Get over it.

 

just to add to this comment, let's remember that Kessler BEAT FROCH after his fight with Ward. so we can't say he was shot.

 

He knocked Green out ****ing cold idiot. Something no fighter has ever been able do. What i said is 100% true , im just stating the reality of what happened.. Its not my opinion, its fact.

 

He was training for a lhw fight against a orthodox fighter.
Calzaghe was preparing for a smw fight against a orthodox fighter

He had to cut weight on 11 days notice. He would of had to train while practically starving himself. It was a stupid thing for Eubank to do.A well prepared Eubank couldn't even beat Steve Collins, who was a part time fighter for most of his career.

Robin Reid:
Notable wins: Nardiello
Debateable losses: Ottke
Notable losses: Lacy, Calzaghe, Malinga, Froch, Branco

He never beat anyone worth mentioning and lost to mediocre opponents.

This content is protected

Byron Mitchell:
Notable wins: 0
Debatable wins: Liles
The Liles fight was stopped because of the three kd rule. The problem was that the 2nd kd was a push, not a kd. Liles was ready to continue. Liles was also way ahead on the scorecards if you score the 11th round then he should of been 9-2 at the end of the fight.
Debatable losses: Calzaghe. Garbage stoppage
Notable losses: Ottke, Giraud, Hall, Shumenov, Griffin, Garcia, Erdei
His best win was a gift and he lost to mediocre opponents.

This content is protected

especially when he was coming off a clear loss to Ottke.

Charles Brewer:
Notable wins: Graham (past prime)
Debatable losses: Ottke 1
Notable losses:Velasquez, Thomas, Beasley, Williams, Ottke II, Echols, calzaghe, Veit, Mock

His best win was against a waay past prime Graham and he regularly lost to mediocre opponents.

You obviously do not understand the Ring rankings. The Ring rankings are merely a ordering of the best fighters in the division. The fact that guys like Reid made the top ten should tell you that the division was weak as hell.

Because he beat a bunch of guys who were on the slide? He should not of even fought them in the first place.

????????????
Kessler's best win is Froch who he beat after Ward. What part of that is so hard for you to understand?

Who on earth classes that as a great win? I already stated that Abraham was coming off a loss and yet to beat a live opponent.

No

This content is protected

Kessler:
Kessler going into the Calzaghe fight had not beaten anyone worth mentioning. Andrade is basically a journeyman. Beyer was average at best. He gave a terrible account of himself against Kessler and basically quit at the end of round 3. Lucas was nothing special either.

His best win was after Ward. He obviosly was not at the end of his career. The Froch win is really the only win on his resume worth mentioning

atsch

 

Stop.
I presented a overall comparison of their resumes, including opponents missed. A category which has to be looked at when evaluating a fighters resume.

So I will state it AGAIN. He registered with the WBO and worked his way up the rankings. He was Obviously trying to get a mandatory shot. His actions speak for themselves. Why is that so hard for you to understand?:huh

Calzaghe was never the undisputed smw champion. He never cleared out his division.

It does not have to be Bute OR Hopkins and Kessler. He should of fought Bute after Kessler.

And both of them had styles which Calzaghe obviously thought he could beat
Hopkins just too old - Calzaghe

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/7349616.stm

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2007/10/25/uk-boxing-calzaghe-idUKL2584485220071025

Almost 70% of Calzaghe's title defenses were against nobodies.
Sobot, Gimenez, Thornberry, starie, Sheika, Veit, McIntyre, Jimenez, Pudwill, Mger, Veit, Ahira, Salem, Manfredo

The last person to being using the "I wont fight him because he is not a name" is Calzaghe

He obviously was doing it on purpose

Do I know Liles career in minute detail? No., but everything I stated below is is a fact, except when I stated there was a possibility he could of contacted ****** about Calzaghe.

I cannot be expected to have solid evidence on everyone. Info on Liles is hard to come by. (Took me ages just to track down most of his title fights.)

1: Liles throughout his career always said he wanted to unify. He tried to make the Collins(WBO) fight but that fell through. Whether he wanted to fight Collins for his belt or just for money we will never know. Most likely both.
2: I'm sure a fight with Calzaghe would of brought in more money than fights with the likes of Mercado and Sieller.

 

Your welcome:good