Boxing History "Facts"

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by salsanchezfan, Feb 10, 2013.


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  1. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Reading McGrain's excellent comments in the Louis-Walcott thread, it got me to thinking..........how many memes are there in boxing history, things touted as facts down through the years to the point they aren't even questioned any more? How much of it is bull****?

    You can use examples either in general boxing history from other sources or at ESB, really. Such as.........

    1. The good old "Gee, it's a pity Salvador Sanchez had to die so young, denying him his better years ahead." .............this is crap. It's something they read from a magazine or a book somewhere or from a thread here and there, parroted by someone trying to establish in the confines of that thread that they too know the man's history and are savvy about it.

    It's still crap. It's an enormous assumption to think that Sanchez had any greater heights to aspire to, even at the tender chronological age of 23. Boxing, as we know (or should know) is not about chronological years. It's about how many fights you have in you, how long you've already put your nose to the grindstone and sacrificed, punished your body in both training and hard, extended efforts in the ring. No one body has an infinite supply of that stuff to give. There are limits to it that don't necessarily heed any year marker. Sanchez began his pro career at age 15, and doing the math one can see he had then a rather extended career covering 46 fights and ten championship bouts. To read some comments, one would think he'd just begun fighting when he died. He'd developed quite a backlog of good efforts already. Particularly considering the rumored weight jump he was supposed to have made before long, one can only guess at his effectiveness in subsequent efforts. Climbing the scales doesn't always work, even for the best fighters.

    2. "Tommy Hearns should have boxed Marvin Hagler."...........moot point. He couldn't have if he wanted to. I do think he meant to do just that at the beginning of the second round, but by then he was already too damaged to get away.

    3. "Roberto Duran was the greatest lightweight champion ever." .......there have been times here at ESB where it's seemed pretty much sacrilegious to even suggest that Roberto Duran wasn't the perfect fighter and the only reasonable choice as the preeminent lightweight in history. I can see a little softening in that line of thinking now, and that's good. Not sure what I believe about that statement one way of the other, I haven't seen a lot of either Benny Leonard or Ike Williams, but it got to the point that people simply gave Duran that laurel because that's what everyone else said. For what it's worth, not many names on his lightweight ledger inspire a lot of fear. A whole lot of ordinary there.


    What other classic boxing memes would you like to dispel?
     
    salsanchezfan, Feb 10, 2013
    salsanchezfan, Feb 10, 2013
    #1
  2. Jorodz

    Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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    great thread sal! i'm guessing mcgrain commented on the assumption walcott was robbed despite a lack of the full fight?

    1.duran would have beat hagler if it was over 12 rounds. both men would have fought a different fight, plain and simple. this ties into...

    2.hagler would surely have beaten leonard over 15. leonard was tired at the end of 12...but that's cause he was pacing himself for 12. not 15

    3.ray robinson would have beaten maxim without the heat. probable? yes. certainty? no
     
    Jorodz, Feb 10, 2013
    Jorodz, Feb 10, 2013
    #2
  3. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Good ones. Though having recently seen Robinson-Maxim in its entirety last month, I came away fully believing it was the heat, and only the heat that beat Ray. Maxim was singularly awful that night, and landed essentially nothing.
     
    salsanchezfan, Feb 10, 2013
    salsanchezfan, Feb 10, 2013
    #3
  4. Jorodz

    Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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    one of the first robinson fights i've ever seen and you're right: maxim's jab was non existent and he did nothing except take combinations to the head and body. but boxing is what it is and anything can happen

    i feel safe saying ray was dominating the action until he couldn't move anymore and in all liklihood would have won a wide UD in different conditions. i just worry about the CERTAINTY he would have done so
     
    Jorodz, Feb 10, 2013
    Jorodz, Feb 10, 2013
    #4
  5. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    This one is a thread unto itself!
     
    salsanchezfan, Feb 10, 2013
    salsanchezfan, Feb 10, 2013
    #5
  6. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    A valid argument.
     
    salsanchezfan, Feb 10, 2013
    salsanchezfan, Feb 10, 2013
    #6
  7. Jorodz

    Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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    :lol:that's a really good one and almost disproven in reality to. fighters like tillis tried to stand up to him, tucker to a degree and even mitch green.

    the spinks fight has turned mike tyson into ****ing professor xavier who gets into his opponents heads and renders them useless before a fight has begun.

    the douglas fight was a combination of factors including: japanese prostitutes, japanese cocaine, an out of shape tyson AND a badass version of douglas. he wasn't the first fighter who tried to beat tyson. just the first to succeed
     
    Jorodz, Feb 10, 2013
    Jorodz, Feb 10, 2013
    #7
  8. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    This one. Buncha ****ing revisionist loonies spout that nonsense.
     
    salsanchezfan, Feb 10, 2013
    salsanchezfan, Feb 10, 2013
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  9. Drew101

    Drew101 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    "Norton was robbed against Ali in their third fight".

    Close, either way fight with a number of rounds that are very hard to call. It's certainly not beyond the realm of reason to give Ali eight of the fifteen rounds, especially given the fact that Norton practically gave away the last round. Even if you score the fight for Norton, it's hardly a robbery of Escalera-Evertt esque proportions.

    "Tony Ayala would have been a dominant champion had he not been convicted of **** in the 80's."

    Maybe he wins a title at 154lbs, but it's not a certainty by any means. He'd have a difficult time beating the offensively dynamic Davey Moore or a cagey vet like Duran. And no way in hell does he last against Hearns or McCallum.
     
    Drew101, Feb 10, 2013
    Drew101, Feb 10, 2013
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  10. Drew101

    Drew101 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Holy crap...

    Where have you been!?
     
    Drew101, Feb 10, 2013
    Drew101, Feb 10, 2013
    #10
  11. dyna

    dyna Boxing Junkie banned

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    "Vitali lost 2 times"

    Sorry, couldn't resist it :D
     
    dyna, Feb 10, 2013
    dyna, Feb 10, 2013
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  12. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Ali was getting badly beat up with the rope-a-dope in Zaire (I.E. He was losing before the KO) and heroically stopped Foreman after making him spent by taking all his punches .

    Liston and the ointments blinding opponents. This is a grayer one, but it's accepted as established fact that he basically blinded Ali. Plenty of revisionism about him later blinding other opponents, only after the fact though. The movie Ali doesn't help on these types of matters.

    SRL fought the wrong, and uncharacteristic fight in Montreal against Duran. This will be argued to death by Leonard and Duran fans for an eternity. The key with this is the word uncharacteristic. The problem with this is Leonard was always a boxer-puncher that had no qualms punching in the pocket. It was his dazzling hand-speed and punching that put out a lot of opponents. He was never this boxer-mover, Ala Ali-clone that boxed and moved. The adjustment (Mostly of clowning and Duran not being quite the same) in New Orleans, albeit slight, and the Hagler fight helped reinforce life into this myth.
     
    PetethePrince, Feb 10, 2013
    PetethePrince, Feb 10, 2013
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  13. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I always like Maxim's response to this:

    "Well yeah, because I had air conditioning in my corner!"
     
    TBooze, Feb 10, 2013
    TBooze, Feb 10, 2013
    #13
  14. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The film shows (Sir) David Frost coined 'rope-a-dope' in the post fight in ring interview with Ali:

    "So you roped yourself a dope?."

    The 'tactic' came about by accident, because Ali realized he could not dance away from Foreman, and started to cover up and lay on the ropes, why he and/or Dundee thought up a new plan. Dundee did not think that wise, he was screaming at Ali to get off the ropes.
     
    TBooze, Feb 10, 2013
    TBooze, Feb 10, 2013
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  15. ripcity

    ripcity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I was thinking that the only unarguable facts are the results. Than I realized that even than I'm not so sure with all the contervsual decisions that we have. Boxing is such a subjective sport that I'm not sure there are any absulity true facts.
     
    ripcity, Feb 10, 2013
    ripcity, Feb 10, 2013
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