More Impressive: Calzaghe - Kessler or Ward - Kessler?

Damn your post reeks of anger, it falls down on the premise that im not even a fan of Calzaghe, im objective and the question asked in the thread title is incredibly easy to answer. Although i dont agree with everything Knockout Artist posts at least he has the intelligence to argue and debate in a mature manner, unlike your petulant self. I'd suggest you move on before you further embarress yourself. I got the better of you long ago when you failed to answer anything i posted in response what you were posting, instead you showed your distinct lack of tact and knowledge by posting the same things over and over again, then complaining about my breakdowns when backed into a corner. Move along child. Gibberish? i call it...

This content is protected

 

I must admit, i scooped to a level in this thread i didnt really want to go. You are completely right Jeff:good

 

We've all done it. Hell, I did it the other day (mentioned Kessler's hand excuse). Actually, it was in this thread.

 

Calzaghe UD12 Kessler was obviously more impressive.

 

:goodyour not so bad afterall.

 

Im debating box but you're obsessing over me as an individual. The way i see it you're using Kessler as an excuse to evaluate my personality. Im shuttling your twisted fantasy down son.

Did Kessler beat the best version of a bad backed injured Froch or did we see the best Froch when he blew out Bute and imo will defeat Kessler in a rematch.
Nobody can claim the best version of sombody when they are still active and still winning. That is all that needs to be said on the matter.

 

Hahaha!!
You're obviously ,undoubtedly, undeniably wrong if you agree with grade A idiot Vladimir23.
Check mate. Strike 3. Wrap it up . You're done

 

Im only assessing your character over this one subject and that was after you began insulting me, its clearly something you feel very strongly about. I think its fair to say on this one subject you have been pretty ignorant and unwilling to debate the actual subject when i have challenged points you have made. As for the second point every fighter is different and must be treated as such, i think Froch has improved since the Kessler defeat and used it in a positive manner. In the Bute fight he wasnt loading up on his punches and the improvement was paramount, he looked more fluid and quick. I agree that he is most likely going to beat Kessler this time round, if the fight is close he should get the W being the home fighter.:good

 

Look at the poll.:smoke

 

The poll refers to who beat Kessler more decisively. Nothing to do with this argument.

 

80% agree with him, abiet for different reasons. Their is no arguement to be had.

 

As another rule, always name your baby "Sugar Nick" if he'll be exposed to meth in his breast milk. It's a tradition.

 

Ok, but me and Dom weren't

I wouldn't class it as a good win, Dawson didn't look right at all going into the fight, and he was KO'd in sparring a week earlier by Edison Miranda. Dawson is not a SMW, and should not have fought at SMW, I respect him for chasing the tough fights but that loss was a disaster for him, he might never recover from it. Ward's wins over Bika and Abraham are better than the win over Dawson. John Scully posts on here and he was talking about the Ward training camp, and what Chad had to go through to tip 168 on the scales.

Age is but a number in boxing, I'm not saying Kessler was past his sell by date when he fought Ward, and I appreciate you want to discredit Calzaghe as much as possible, however to most objective observers he was clearly sharper and fought better against Calzaghe. He beat a few nobodies between 2007-2009 and didn't look impressive in doing so either. I'm not saying the difference was night and day, but Kessler clearly declined a bit from 2007-2009, I think Froch will beat him in May by decision or late stoppage.

The Froch win was his best win, that's true, but he won it in a brutal war of attrition where he had to absorb more punishment than ever before. After the Froch fight, he contemplated permanent retirement.


[quote[
The fact that he was unbeaten means nothing. He hadn't fought anyone so he should of been unbeaten. He would of still lost to win even if he had missed Calzaghe

The only opponent on Kessler resume worth mentioning is Froch and he got that win post Ward.
[/quote]


Sure you can spin it that way, what you said isn't wrong. However the best way is to watch the fights and judge a fighters performance on what you see in the ring, not on paper.

Better timing, accuracy, hand speed

Not really, I mean Kessler is a very good fighter, Ward is a great fighter, add to that Ward is also a stylistic nightmare. Kessler would never have a chance against Ward, green, prime, peak or whatever.

See the above point

The fights with Collins and Thompson were all very competitive. Eubank was clearly faded in 1997, but still capable. I notice you want to give Ward credit for beating Kessler when he was a novice, but refuse to give Calzaghe any credit for beating Eubank when he himself was a novice.

You can't possibly know this one way or the other, so I'm going to discard this point

Stop with the statistical analysis (boxrec arguments as they're known on here), and watch the fights. Dawson was a dead man walking against Ward, Eubank fought a tough competitive fight against Calzaghe.

Calzaghe beat Bika when he was undefeated, and beat him more clearly, make of that what you will.

[/quote]

I think you've clearly missed the point

 

When Dawson faced Ward, he had not fought at SMW for over 6 years and 5 months

When Eubank faced Calzaghe, he had not fought at SMW for 2 years 2 months

You tell me who would have been more comfortable making 168

You obviously do not understand the Ring rankings. The Ring rankings are merely a ordering of the best fighters in the division. The fact that guys like Reid made the top ten should tell you that the division was weak as hell.[/quote]


1999 Robin Reid would make the top 10 in today's division, so what's your point?

You've clearly missed (or are purposely ignoring) the point I've made, I'm not making out that Reid, Mitchell, Brewer, Woodhall were a murderers row of challengers What I'm saying is beating top 10 fighters in your division are notable title defences, Ward has top wins but doesn't have the same depth.

They weren't bad title defences, Reid, and Mitchell were both like 1 fight removed from being champions themselves.

Please refer to the above post which covers this

Abraham is widely considered Ward's third best win

So by your logic, a when a fighter records their best win, that means they are absolutely in their prime?

Ali was in his prime when he beat Foreman?

Leonard was in his prime when he beat Hagler?

Lewis was in his prime when he beat Vitali?

Hopkin was in his prime when he beat Tarver?


That's four examples of fighters recording their best wins when past their best :smoke

 

The key word here was 'achievements' - as in what each fighter has achieved.

Did he ever get into a mandatory spot?

Kell Brook was registered with the WBO whilst under Frank ******, I take it we can assume he was chasing Pacquiao!

It's impossible to clean out a division, this is boxing and whoever you beat, someone new will always surface. What matters is beating the key rivals, Calzaghe beat Kessler and Lacy.

How? Calzaghe was under an HBO contract and HBO had a big say in his opponents. He was going to fight Stieglitz as IBF mandatory, until HBO rejected Stieglitz as an opponent, meaning Joe had to give up the IBF belt, as HBO wanted the better known Manfredo.

Bute beat Berrio on the 19th October 2007

Calzaghe beat Kessler on the 3rd November 2007

Calzaghe and Kessler would have already have been signed by the time Bute signed to fight Berrio, Calzaghe would have already been in training camp on 19th October to fight Kessler. Clearly, it was either Kessler or Bute at this time, and Kessler was the unified champ and regarded as the best or next best SMW on the planet at the time.

After beating Kessler, the fight that fans and HBO wanted was Hopkins. HBO's contract demanded that Joe's third fight of the contract (after Manfredo and Kessler) be in America.

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/7136912.stm[/url]

[url]http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Hopkins+ready+to+take+on+Joe.-a0157043766[/url]



Therefore, you're trying to argue that Bute was a more meaningful fight, and more lucrative fight that fans and networks would have preferred at this time? Bute was probably fighting on Showtime and under a showtime contract anyway

More to the point, did Bute ever get into a mandatory position? Did he ever call out Calzaghe after a fight? Did his team ever make an offer?

What does this mean? Do you expect a fighter to say 'I don't think I can beat him' in the build up to a fight?

Fair point, but look at the context

Perhaps

I respect that you know a lot more about Liles and his career than I do. As you see though, without hard evidence we can only speculate, therefore you may well be right, I'm not saying you're wrong, however this is just conjecture and therefore you can't list Liles as a 'confirmed duck' against Joe