Yeah. I have Spinks in the 35-45 range. Achievement, ability, only one loss and how could you take much from him for that? I can rank him over Burley. No probs.
damn right. his small number of relative fights looks worse than it is, he dominated easily the second best era at 175 and moved up and, as you said, beat a top 5 heavyweight. he's a top 30-40 guy for me with no reservations
You're right, Pep does get a bit underrated. Above Duran and Fitzsimmons (so, #8 for me) but one below Moore. Why? Moore first beat a rated contender in 1940 and beat his last in 1962! Jesus on toast, he even drew with Willie Pastrano when nearly fifty. I think I counted about sixty seven rated contenders which is far more than anyone else I counted for, including Pep. On the list were many heavyweights. He shared his early light heavyweight days with Charles and I regard that as pretty unfortunate rather than Moore not being top ten worthy, because he later proved to be clearly superior to Johnson & Maxim and at thirty five plus, went on to hold the light heavyweight title for ten years and beat every heavyweight not named Marciano or Patterson. Only a space above Pep though.
Eh, plenty of quality. Chalkey Wright multiple times, Manuel Ortiz, Sal Bartolo, and Paddy DeMarco. And it's not like his first streak was broken completely without arguments of it being a close and arguably controversial fight.
Yeah Pep has real credentials. I like seeing him rated high. I love a top five Pep. But like I always say, Moore amazes me every time I look at his record or read about this beating, that illness, this fatness, that country, whatever. His Charles and Marciano losses in particular were really unlucky tragedies.
Moore was amazing for his fountain of youth. It's a longevity versus dominance argument. No wrong answer really, I must admit. I prefer the dominance one, I guess. Love Moore, though. Moore's HW record gets underrated slightly, I think. He wasn't just a guy up there. He beat some real good fighters, and even knocked some around well into his 40's!
I'm not sure I'd have him over Burley but there's certainly a real case. I think he should make the top fifty, though. I would agree with you that McGrain is a little kind to the murderers crew guys like Burley & Holman Williams. Great fighter as they are, though. That high of a ranking feels almost too speculative, though, IMO. I was guilty of this too. Burley looks awesome on film.
He did. I'm repeating myself now, but I love the fact that a rated 211lbs Lavorante had to be 'carried from the ring on a stretcher' in 1962 - who'd have thought that from some kid who stepped up in the 1930s as a welterweight?
I suggest swapping Monzon and Hagler (Both considered the greatest middleweights ever by large proportions of people and top 5 fixtures) ahead of Olivares and Gavilan who are both Good fighters but are rarely considered to be in the top 5 of their division. Tommy Ryan has to swap with Jofre, imo. Ryan's career is very similar to Ray Robinson's. He must be top 3Tier at least. It was between Jofre and Sugar Ray Leonard, but i think that Jofre has to go. It is bad luck that this means he drops off the list, he is not really a necessarilly a tier above the guys in the bottom tier, so i think it fair enough. Now that Monzon and Hagler are gone, i think that Tier 6 is actually stronger than tier 5. I would suggest swapping the whole lot. This leaves my suggestions to be introduced which is Joe Gans, Les Darcy and Barbados Joe Walcott. The easiest way is to swap them with Arguello, Napoles and Ortiz. Which i suggest for now, although realisitically, i think that all three should probably be a little higher. Darcy somewhere near Ketchell and McGovern tier, Gans near Leonard, Pep and Co, and Walcott near Mickey Walker somewhere. This just leaves my suggestions for holders as Mike Gibbons, Tommy Burns.
yeah, i usually consider olivares as one of the best bantams ever, behind for certain jofre only, and gavilan certainly has top 5 argument at welter
Wl EDIT That was an accidental quick reply I must admit. So, for now, I'll just say; I really like all the names given so far. Just a matter of sorting them.
Moore and Burley wins put Charles above B. Leonard? Ali over Leonard and Gans? I'm happy I stopped wasting my time on these forums.
