The Strongest Middleweigt Era and Reevaluating Boxing Dogma

Aaron Wade was definitely a middleweight. http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Aaron_(Tiger)_Wade

 

You make a strong argument.

My only counter observation would be that some of the name fighters listed, were passing through the division en route to establishing their main body of work at light heavy.

 

yeah those fighters fought at MW and so did Len Harvey with tremendous credentials, but I rate those types at the next division as they were merely passing through as 'young' fighters and leveled off in this case at L-HW. Their wins are still valid though as are their wins and defeats at HW equally and more so give validity to their overall ranking at L-HW. You see what I mean, fighters should really only be rated at their one true weight with the other divisions as I said adding to their excellence.

I'd love to see your list, it's nice to see someone not being mislead by todays hype and achievements alone thinking when the truth is most of the type of fighters you mention are blatantly better than the ones you set them against for examples. They deserve that honest breakdown, ALL fighters do and it also paints a more accurate understanding of Boxing History and puts fighters in more accurate placements respectfully.

and keeping in mind too, the differences at the TOP are in most cases minimal, there are hundreds of great fighters hundreds.

 

The best era imo is the late 80s-early 90s, with:

Roy Jones
Toney
McCallum
Kalambay
Hopkins
Benn
Eubank
Michael Watson
McClellan
Nunn
Herol Graham
Reggie Johnson
Steve Collins
Barkley
Leonard
Hearns
Julian Jackson
Duran

You may argue Hopkins, Leonard, Hearns and Duran were not at their best in this period ofcourse

 

Middleweight's been sadly poor since 1995.

 

Its a good post and fairly well rounded.

1) I can't post my list from phone but I know that in my top 25 or whatever the following are featured.


Freddie Steele
Holman Williams
Charly Burley
Fred Apostoli
Ken Overlin
Lloyd Marshall
Tony Zale
Mickey Walker
Marcel Thil

And the following feature in lists from other divisions.


Billy Conn
Ezzard Charles
Archie Moore
Georgie Abrams
Cocoa Kid

So it is a ridiculously strong era and I reckon I agree with you ranking it so highly.

2) I think an artificially long reign could be had due to the war years (if they fall in this time frame, I can't remember the specific years) in terms of a dominant reign though I think Hagler could manage it as I wouldn't pick many mw's to beat him and he he came through a tough schedule himself. Robinson would be a favourite over everyone on the list but as a mw he wasn't very consistent and in his prime he was a welter so a tough schedule at a higher weight could see him falter at points. Monzon was very consistent and again I think he could replicate his success in almost any era. Greb I can't say as I haven't seen his fights.

3) I rank on a tier system. I give resume and achievement an equal rating so even though these guys have top class resumes it is difficult to measure the worth of their achievements but that definitely holds a lot of those back. Within my tier I split on h2h based first on fight results and second on the eye test.

 

Excellent posts. Makes me rethink my take on the greatest MWs of all time. Growing up in the 70's and 80's I was convinced that Hagler was the greatest MW of all time. Learning more about the greats who proceeded him made me change my thinking a bit. I still regard Hagler as top 5 in the MW hierarchy but not necessarily #1...Though that changes with the weather of course. I would like to ask Burt for his top ten MW champs of all time just to see if they match my own picks...I tend to rate fighters on a H2H basis but would like to see a more experienced fan's opinion. If you don't mind Burt.

 

gj. as it is so difficult to choose one best MW champion H2H, to pick 10 best MWs is 10 times harder to do...But I will give it a shot.
Harry Greb- because of his almost surreal record of fighting almost every
12 days,and beating everyone regardless of size, style, colour in a 300 bout career, and the last 5 years with but one eye...Think how Greb would fare if he fought a little less and rested his wounds...He has to be #1.
Bob Fitz-a MW in a heavyweights body
Stanley Ketchel- only 2 film of him, Papke and Jack johnson ,but not 49 kos
Ray Robinson - greater as a WW, but the Robby who kod LaMotta was tops
Mickey Walker- a bulldog who Londeners said would beat Robinson
Freddie Steele- for 10 years almost unbeatable until breastbone injury
Charley Burley-an amazing fighter avoided during the 1940s
Les Darcy- a tragic young death age 22 .Might have been a super fighter ?
Carlos Monzon- great size for a MW.
Kid McCoy-tricky and shrewd. Beat LHs and heavies
Not necessarily in order..
P.S.I included 2 non-champs Darcy and Burley as they were special.
PPS. Of course Marvin Hagler, tough as nails and a southpaw to boot. By far best since Robinson, but never tackled LHs,which would have answered
many questions...Jim I know I have 11 names, but who do I leave out H2H.?

 

great list Burt, but 3 points here...

Fitz I would say was a L-HW
Monzon like ALL of todays fighters would have been fighting UP against the greats & great period before him, really a L-HW too.

and Freddie Steele, YES, but not before or without Jock McAvoy - it's blows my mind they never met and Mac too fought the big boys and did better against common opponents.

it's better to just list 50 or more of these guys because there were a ton of them and very little between them.

 

No it's Risko but Steele fought him twice and McAvoy destroyed him as well as beat 4 other Americans including the Top L-HW cum HW contender Al McCoy who fought Loe Louis and Mac too competed with honour over the full 15 with the great JHL. these are great wins and fights to say nothing of his overall career.

 

Achievement can mean a plethora of things. for instance louis achieved a level of dominance never seen before or since. Ali achieved 3 times champion status before anyone else. Lewis achieved the feat of beating everyone he fought. Jones Jr achieved a status as one of the most gifted boxers in history. Wills achieved one of the longest runs of top contender in history. Armstrong achieved the incredible feat of being the best fw, lw and ww AT THE SAME TIME! Hopkins achieved full unification when there was an incredible 5 belts knocking about. Leonard achieved the greatest comeback in boxing history. Rocky achieved an undefeated career. Burley achieved the status of most avoided boxer in history. Tyson achieved status as the youngest champ in hw history. Benitez achieved status as youngest champ period.

The achievements is where my personal taste comes into. Resume is a very black and white concept that's logic based and objective, by and large there isn't a huge degree os disagreements on the strength of a resume. Achievements is what makes my list mine. It's what reflects my personal opinion on the sport and gives my rankings flavour.

Here's my MW list as of now:

Marvin Hagler
Carlos Monzon
Ray Robinson
Stan Ketchel
Harry Greb
Charley Burley
Fred Apostoli
Holman Williams
Bernard Hopkins
Dick Tiger
Jake La Motta
Bob Fitzsimmons
Mike Gibbons
Les Darcy
Tiger Flowers
Freddie Steele
Gene Fullmer
Bobo Olson
Nino Benvenuti
Micky Walker
Sumbu Kalambay
Emile Griffith
Tony Zale
Marcel Thil
Jack N.P. Dempsey
Billy Papke
Tommy Ryan