Is it safe to say Wladimir got the worst chin of the top 10 heavyweights?

It's a weakness but small guys probably have weaker chins like Marciano, Charles, Dempsey and maybe Johnson.

 

Marciano?

I just rewatched Wlad vs Sanders. He took maybe three or four average punches and was then was dropped by the first decent left hook he caught. AFter that he was dropped by every substantial punch he took. If he wasnt dropped by it, he simply dropped 1 second or so after it. I dont even know if the last knock down had a clean punch landed but i suppose it probably did.

If Joe Gans had dropped like this, he would have been accused of throwing the fight! When hurt, he seemed to flail around like he was 'exhausted' but this time it was only the first round. The same happened against Purity, the same happened against Brewster. I need to rewatch the Peter fight, but if i recall, wasnt Peter hopelessly outclassed before nearly ko ing Wlad with his first decent shot also?

Wlad is a great fighter. But, i am pretty confident that the first fighter who lands say 3 or 4 clean blows will beat him (easier said than done). I am not convinced that that fighter necessarilly needs to be above the middleweight limit to do this (though obviously middleweights may not have the chin to survive long enough to land such blows). I am certainly confident that a clean Joe Choynksi blow has Wlad Flailing.

I think Wlads chin is by far the worse i have seen of any ATG fighter. to put it into perspective, i think it is quite a bit more susceptible than Roy JOnes Jr. I understand the argumetn about smaller guys being worse, but all the little guys have taken bigger shots than Wlad. I know someone talked earlier about panicking when getting hit as opposed to a bad chin. that is possible, but isnt that what a bad chin is?

 

So I take it you think the McGovern fight was a fix?

 

If somebody like Marciano had a chin like Wlad he would get KOd left right and centre, because he would not have the physical tools to protect it.

 

Why do you think a super middleweight punches remotely as hard as Sanders? What evidence is there of that? What logic? Sanders was one of the biggest heavyweight punchers around, a man who badly hurt Vitali with one punch and was on the verge of dropping him. Nothing he threw in the opening rounds of a fight was average. He punched to take your head off. Same with Brewster. No one would have considered those fights fixes. Wlad was getting hammered. If you get hit by monstrous head snapping punches and you hit the deck no one's going to shout, "THE FIX IS IN!!!" That's just ludicrous.

Wlad's not got an iron chin, I don't think anyone will dispute that. But the two men who stopped him in his prime were both huge heavy handed guys renowned for their power who caught him flush but had to knock him six times between them to get the stoppage. Since then he's fought and taken punches from Peter, Haye, Wach, Rahman and Brewster, all fighters who can take your head off if you let them (and as Brewster did first go round). This hysterical nonsense about his "china chin" needs to stop. It really doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Re: your last point. Panicking and getting dropped are two different things. One is a mental reaction to a punch, the other a physical one. Of course, there needs to be something to make you panic in the first place, but does Wlad really panic as much as people say he does? I think he simply has an ingrained reaction to clinch whenever he takes a solid one on the chin, regardless of whether the shot hurt him or not. People say Haye hurt him but I don't really see it, and Haye landed some corkers on his jaw.

 

If Wlad had the fearlessness of Marciano maybe he would never have been stopped in the first place. I think there's a very strong mental component to consider here.

 

I currently have him in the 10-12 tier, but imagine he will find himself to be top 10 by consensus in another 10 years. I don't believe lewis was rated top 10 during the final years(s) of his career, but he is in most reasonable lists nowadays.

As far as top 20 chins go, I am not sure if he is the worst...He is likely ahead of Patterson (If you have Patterson in your top 20)....Perhaps he is in the ballpark of a Frazier/Lewis/Marciano/Dempsey range....I don't think he would fall far below that although many might disagree.

 

A lot depends on whether you consider it to be more damaging to be stopped by a great small heavyweight or a limited big heavyweight. I would personally consider it to be far more damaging to get stopped by Ross Purity than Max Schmeling for example.

Let us examine the fighters who dropped Louis in turn:

Max Schmeling was the kind of fighter you don’t really get in the heavyweight division today. A defensive counter puncher with a solid smash. He combined power and delivery into a very effective package.

Jimmy Braddock was a renowned puncher as a light heavyweight contender, but was plagued by hand problems throughout is career. It is difficult to judge how well he carried his power up to heavyweight, but there are some testimonies from people on the receiving end to suggest that he did.

Tony Galento was a limited fighter, but one of the hardest punchers of that period. He knocked out a few guys who’s only other knockout loss was to either Louis or Baer.

Buddy Baer was an absolutely devastating puncher, and bigger than the guys who stopped Wlad.

Joe Walcott was a defensive counter puncher with a solid smash. The same punches that he hit Louis with, dropped Rocky Marciano and sent Ezzard Charles to la la land

Rock Marciano’s credentials as a puncher need no justification. He was a devastating puncher with a very high punch output. He pretty much knocked out everybody of note that he ever fought.

So in summary, all the guys who dropped Louis were serious punchers, with the one case where there is room for argument being Jimmy Braddock.

 

I don't think his chin is that bad, but his defence is. It's actually quite atrocious for such a good fighter and totally falls apart when he's pressed. That enables his opponents to land clean shots that he often doesn't see coming because he's all over the place. Anyone will be KO'd if guys like Sanders gets to tee-off on your totally exposed chin. And the punchers Peter hurt him with either landed clean or he looked the other way and was off balance.

Had he had the technical skill to tuck his chin behind his shoulder or roll with the punches and kept poise and balance it would have been a different story. So my answer is that Klitschko certainly has the worst defence from a technical stand-point of any of the top 10.

He's hard to hit because of his size, great straight punches and terrific ring generalship, but if his perimeter is breached he can do nothing but hold. And that would come back to haunt him against great aggressive fighters. It probably would have hurt him more if refs weren't so lenient on his holding. Home-town advantage certainly has its perks.

That's why I think Tyson and Lewis would KO him, and possibly Foreman as well. Frazier... really depends on how much holding the ref would allow. Think absolutely he would have lost had he taken Ali's place in Manilla or FOTC. Marciano just has such a size disadvantage, but with a ref that has zero-tolerance for holding....

 

I would have to agree.

With regard to your previous comments on Lewis, I could cut him some slack on the McCall loss, because the fight would never have been stopped in Louis's era.

The Ramhan loss is more damaging because it was a ten count.

 

maybe as far as top 10 heavyweights of all time.

 

Marciano had a very good chin in the LHW catch weight division, it's untested in the bigger heavier division Wlad has fought in.

 

Don't you know size never matters until the fighter they like, loses to the bigger man?

 

What evidence is there that Sanders is one of the hardest punches ever. Sanders was a nobody boxer until he KOd Wlad. Dont get me wrong (as with all modern heavys) he can hit hard. But what evidence is there that he hits harder than Rahman, Tua, Witherspoon, Mercer, Maskaev, Fury, and nowadays you can probably list another 20 or so. That is without mentioning guys who truly are freakish punchers for their size. Like Tyson, Shavers, Satterfield, and of course Choynski. Brewster was the same as Sanders not really a true world class fighter (and by world class i mean won who could be the best fighter in the world or capable of giving that fighter a close fight on most occassions (without landing a one off haymaker).

You ask for evidence of Choynski's greatness. How about the testimony of every fighter he ever faced, including Jim Jeffries among others. If he lands clean, his punch is going to be in the same class as those who knocked out Wlad.

Wach? Wach landed one good clean punch and it looked like if he followed up for a second he would KO him against the run of the fight. Haye troubled Wlad badly on the odd occassions he did throw his hands. I would have to rewatch Peter and Rahman. I certainly dont recall either landing regularly on Wlad. Certainly not as often as say Frazier did on Ali.

One other thing you seem to forget when talking of china chins is that you are measuring against other all time greats, not just average Joes. If measuring Wlads chin against the current top 100 he might even make the top 50 (probably does), but that doesnt mean he doesnt rank last among the all time greats.

I dont know which is my point. He hasnt been hit often enough for anyone to say for sure. The difficulty is though, the few times he has been hit he has shown poor punch resistance, and his legs struggle to hold him up. It happened with Purity, Brewster and Sanders. all big enough hitters to do that to anyone i suppose, but it did seem so bad, and when you couple it with the worrying glimpses (which is all they really were) in Haye, Wach and probably Peter. Is it any coincidence taht his most impressive performances are against lighter hitters like Byrd?

It is possible that there are excuses and his chin will ultimately be proved when he ages and has to rely on it but the signs are not good at teh moment.

 

So a guy who proved he coudl take countless clean hits from big punchers probably has a worse chin than a guy who was KOd or staggered by virtually every clean shot he took.

Using that logic I suppose we coudl at least agree that John L Sullivan reigns supreme over all of them, because he is the only one proven to take clean shots without gloves, which obviously hurts a lot more.