The Top 100 Pound for Pound All-Time Greats

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Feb 15, 2013.


Page 101 of 245
  1. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

    28,760
    84
    May 30, 2009
    Glad I knocked Zivic down a few tiers. Honestly, he's still probably undeserving of being that high.

    May I ask what is so Rodriguzes so special? So high? It stings that he's above Marciano. Also Pac is above Mayweather still. Holyfield needs to be above Mayweather, please. Arguello is of course above Pac for that other side discussion. It's funny how far Pac has fallen. I remember when McGrain ranked him 18th after beating Ricky Hatton. How things do change.
     
    PetethePrince, Feb 25, 2013
    PetethePrince, Feb 25, 2013
    #1501
  2. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

    12,028
    106
    Jun 30, 2008
    Good stuff then. The forum needs people like you. I think Ezz has the most wins, but yeah, Greb's the real trouble man with that claim.
     
    the cobra, Feb 25, 2013
    the cobra, Feb 25, 2013
    #1502
  3. LittleRed

    LittleRed Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,850
    239
    Feb 19, 2012
    Some people feel he won all four fights against Griffith. As a welterweight best the crap out of.several excellent middleweights. I don't think I would.especially argue marciano over LMR.
     
    LittleRed, Feb 25, 2013
    LittleRed, Feb 25, 2013
    #1503
  4. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,426
    1,469
    Sep 7, 2008
    LMR shits on Marciano, let's be real.
     
    Flea Man, Feb 25, 2013
    Flea Man, Feb 25, 2013
    #1504
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,357
    48,722
    Mar 21, 2007
    lmr IS great. He doesn't "**** all over" any other greats, he doesn't have that top to bottom kind of dominance, at all. I've said it before, I'll say it again; how you feel about him is going to depend upon how you feel about his meetings with Griffith. Guys who flip what we have on film based upon what they see will have him cnnsiderably higher than guys who don't. I don't do that unless I see outright lies in front of my eyes. Marciano perhaps loses to no fighter in history of his poundage or less. That is his legacy, and his ability as it appears on film. The same cannot be said of LMR.

    And, not losing IF you're careful about meeting the best, as he was, is the single greatest intangible you can have regarding legacy. Marciano fought the best he could meet at his weight and above, almost exclusively, and nobody found a way. That means plenty to me because if so infuses these other intangibles - mental strength, committment to training, find-a-way generalship & persistance - Rocky gets a 10/10 in all of these areas.

    He ranks #3 on my ATG HW list (and ESB's) at 180lbs. It's ****ing insanity.
     
    McGrain, Feb 25, 2013
    McGrain, Feb 25, 2013
    #1505
  6. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,426
    1,469
    Sep 7, 2008
    Yeah he's overrated then IMO. He has about five scalps that actually mean anything. I would never have him in a top 5 HW list. Rose tinted spectacles that.

    I agree with the hypothesis that he beats any man weighing less than 190lbs but he misses out on depth of resume and length of reign. EDIT: Of course he has wins over two top 10 (arguably) P4P fighters so I can see the argument. Especially as both had a case for P4P no.1 of the day when The Rock smashed 'em. Okay, I can see Marciano over LMR but don't agree with it myself
     
    Flea Man, Feb 25, 2013
    Flea Man, Feb 25, 2013
    #1506
  7. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,426
    1,469
    Sep 7, 2008
    Good morning by the way gents. Another 30-odd pages today please :D
     
    Flea Man, Feb 25, 2013
    Flea Man, Feb 25, 2013
    #1507
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,357
    48,722
    Mar 21, 2007
    I don't think I look at Marciano with rose-tinted spetacles at all - in fact i think you'd struggle to find a single fan-boy type post by me on the man.

    Louis, Moore and Charles are the guys he's beaten from the top fifteen of this list and both Charles and Moore were fighting around about their best weights (some will tell you Moore was in his literal prime - I think so actually, given his plan, maybe a younger versiou could have fought a different plan). So whilst he might not have a lot of names (though he obviously has more than five that "mean anything") many of them mean a lot, even if Joe isn't one of them.

    More than anything they underpin the argument supporting his near invincibility versus men of or around his size. Between them, Moore, Charles and Walcott represent a cornerstone for each and every style that might be his undoing.

    What more can a fighter do, which fighters on this list did do so much as to prove that they likely cannot be beaten by men who are their physical equal? Much of the rest of what we talk about is coffee-house crap. Taken in tandem with the astonishing feat of his going literally unbeaten he has an argument for being ranked higher, not lower regardless of detail.
     
    McGrain, Feb 26, 2013
    McGrain, Feb 26, 2013
    #1508
  9. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,426
    1,469
    Sep 7, 2008
    Look at my edit, made before your post :good

    Does he really have more than five, not including rematches?

    Charles
    Moore
    Walcott
    Louis
    Lastarza
    Layne
    Cockell

    Off the top of me head
     
    Flea Man, Feb 26, 2013
    Flea Man, Feb 26, 2013
    #1509
  10. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

    28,760
    84
    May 30, 2009
    I love his destruction of Rex Layne. Say what you want about Layne. At the time he was touted as likely the next HW champ, even drawing some comparisons to Dempsey. Jack Dempsey called him the most promising up and coming contender. Rex Layne at 6'1 a buck 95 basically tried ambushing Rocky. For whatever he thought of his size edge, Layne bullied Marciano back as hard as he could. He mauled, and seemed keen on proving he was the bigger, stronger fighter. The fight displayed Marciano's in-fighting ability. When Layne pressed to attack and force Marciano back, Marciano persisted to fire short shots back in close quarters, but also a nuance to slide in at angles on the inside. Much like Frazier showed against Stander & Chuvalo (At a higher-skill, but with less potent punching); neither fighter were bumbling brawlers incapable of taking a step back or lateral to escape an ambush because of their testicular fortitude. It also showed the lower center of gravities destructive nature in punching. Layne's crowding became immediately futile. Marciano showed his in-fighting prowess by getting underneath his taller fighters arms all the while propelling powerful punches back. Layne's size advantage and perceived strength edge was completely nullified in mere minutes. Marciano became the aggressor, and soon brutalized Layne. He was the one pushing Layne back and doing most of the punching. Eventually Marciano concussed Layne with an overhand right and knocked one or two of his front row teeth.

    Marciano showed some rawness, and certainly looks unrefined even through some of his championship. But Marciano was quintessentially "P4P" in his qualities and fortitude as a fighter. A lot of idol-worship, but basically I'm saying the guy is not wrongly perceived as a H2H stud at his weight. The thing is, other fighters certainly may have proved a little more with their longevity and records. But for me Marciano possessed the kind of mystique that Roy Jones Jr & Jack Dempsey have when it comes to H2H ability and their respective greatness (Except, Marciano actually did prove more than Dempsey. He's arguably in the middle of the two, although Jones proved a bit his ranking often gets done due to his ability).

    To end the fanboyism, it is a reason why I'd push for Tyson to make a placement. Frankly, fighters with greatly perceived H2H ability have been pushed at a ranking based a lot on the idea/potential and not just the record. Can't complain too harshly if Tyson or Frazier just miss the cut. So many great great fighters will. Well, actually, I can only really complain if Lennox Lewis makes it in spite of them. :twisted:
     
    PetethePrince, Feb 26, 2013
    PetethePrince, Feb 26, 2013
    #1510
  11. Mr Butt

    Mr Butt Boxing Junkie Full Member

    14,678
    184
    May 16, 2009


    Just bumping this to the last page as its a few pages back
     
    Mr Butt, Feb 26, 2013
    Mr Butt, Feb 26, 2013
    #1511
  12. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

    28,760
    84
    May 30, 2009
    Honestly, this could be enough to place him within the top 50 on this top of list. At least top 60. I shouldn't really complain about his placement (I'm not really) since it's perfectly fair for some of the reasons you outlined.

    Personally, I'd make Marciano and Holyfield somewhere closer if I had them on a list. They just feel to me that they need to a few placements split between them for some reason. Of course, I'd have Holyfield ahead of Mayweather, too. :twisted:

    Honestly, going from CW to winning the HW title in the stacked 1990's and beating Bowe when being out-weighed by 30 pounds. Not to mention his vanquishing of Tyson. That's P4P **** that Floyd can't even mythically topple!
     
    PetethePrince, Feb 26, 2013
    PetethePrince, Feb 26, 2013
    #1512
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,357
    48,722
    Mar 21, 2007
    01 – Sam Langford
    02 – Harry Greb
    03 – Sugar Ray Robinson
    04 – Henry Armstrong
    05 – Bob Fitzsimmons
    06 – Ezzard Charles
    07 – Benny Leonard
    08 – Muhammad Ali
    ---------------------------------------
    09 – Willie Pep
    10 – Joe Louis
    11 – Roberto Duran
    12 – Joe Gans
    13 – Packey McFarland
    14 – Archie Moore
    15 – Sugar Ray Leonard
    16 – Mickey Walker
    -------------------------------------------
    17 – Barney Ross
    18 – Terry McGovern
    19 – Tony Canzoneri
    20 – Pernell Whitaker
    21 – Charley Burley
    22 – Holman Williams
    23 – Jimmy McLarnin
    24 – Sandy Saddler
    -------------------------------
    25 - George Dixon
    26 - Barbados Joe Walcott
    27 - Stanley Ketchel
    28 - Billy Conn
    29 - Kid Gavilan
    30 -Roy Jones
    31- Gene Tunney
    32 - Tommy Gibbons
    33 - Tommy Loughran
    34 – Jack Britton
    -----------------------------------------
    35 – Eder Jofre
    36 – Jose Napoles
    37 – Carlos Monzon
    38 – Jimmy Bivins
    39 – Marvin Hagler
    40 – Tommy Ryan
    41 – Emile Griffith
    42 –Alexis Arguello
    43 – Julio Cesar Chavez
    44 – Jimmy Wilde
    ----------------------------
    45 – Ruben Olivares
    46 – Ike Williams
    47 – Fighting Harada
    48 – Carlos Ortiz
    49 – Michael Spinks
    50 – Young Corbett
    51 – Thomas Hearns
    52 - Floyd Mayweather
    53 - Manny Pacquiao
    54 – Evander Holyfield
    55 – Freddie Steele
    56 – Abe Attell
    57 – Mike Gibbons
    58 - Bernard Hopkins
    59 - Ted Kid Lewis
    60 - Luis Manuel Rodriguez
    61 - Salvador Sanchez
    62 - Wilfredo Gomez
    63 - Vicente Saldivar
    64 - Rocky Marciano
    -----------------------------------
    65 - Lou Ambers
    66 - Freddie Welsh
    67 - Jim Driscoll
    68 - Dick Tiger
    69 - Harold Johnson
    70 - Carmen Bassilio
    71 - Carlos Zarate
    72 - Manuel Ortiz
    73 - Miguel Canto
    74 - Jack Dempsey (np)
    -------------------------------------
    75 - Lloyd Marshall
    76 - Oscar De La Hoya
    77 - Azumah Nelson
    78 - Mike McCallum
    79 - Bob Foster
    80 - Pascual Perez
    81 - Panama Al Brown
    ---------------------------------------
    82 - Teddy Yarosz
    83 - Young Griffo
    ---------------------------------------

    Getting icky now, even with the tiers which are slowly coming apart the further away we get from the gravity produced by Langford, Greb, Robinson and Armstrong. Think I'll tuck Yarosz in behind Foster.

    Young Griffo made it in based primarily upon draws which is horrible. I've also overturned his loss to McAuliffe and honoured his featherweight title claim in spite of some controversy. He might have to come back a jot but i believe his genius is close to unquestionable.

    Contrarily, Johnny Kilbane is out of this tier based upon draws, and maybe all together. A decade of dominance is something pretty but it's awkward as all hell.
     
    McGrain, Feb 26, 2013
    McGrain, Feb 26, 2013
    #1513
  14. Lester1583

    Lester1583 Can you hear this? Full Member

    4,426
    27
    Dec 18, 2008
    Where the hell is Tyson?!:ibutt
     
    Lester1583, Feb 26, 2013
    Lester1583, Feb 26, 2013
    #1514
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,357
    48,722
    Mar 21, 2007
    Somwhere below Joe Frazier, who is in a fierce battle for the #100 spot.
     
    McGrain, Feb 26, 2013
    McGrain, Feb 26, 2013
    #1515
Page 101 of 245