The Top 100 Pound for Pound All-Time Greats

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Feb 15, 2013.


  1. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I leave the Dillon/Levinsky point on this, I think we have flogged it to death by now. Dillon shaded their series, was the lighter man and beat better fighters up to Hw.(Maybe). He get no extra marks for being shorter( its pound for pound, not inch for inch) :smile:. Levinsky beat at least as good heavyweights and probably more, and went on beating top tier fighters for six years after you reckon Jack had faded when Levinsky beat him. That has to close the gap, longevity has to count a lot, you knock McCoy because while he had a good streak, you felt it wasn't long eneough. I'll agree to disagree but I feel rating Dillon that high is a blemish on your list. The Levinsky arguement was to highlight this, not to promote himself.
    But grist to the mill, was Jeff Clarke not better than either?
    Look at his first 150 or so fights that bring him up to 1915 when he was coming 30, losses only to Langford, Jeannette(avenged) Dixie Kid (who had his number) Wuest(avenged) and a Jack Reed(?)
    He beat a slew of fighters some good, some great. Try Jim Johnson, Twin Sullivan, Maher, Jim Barry. Or try Norfolk, Levinsky, Luther McCarty, Jeanette, SAM LANGFORD and a draw with HARRY WILLS?
    Is Dillon a better fighter than Clarke? Was there 100 better p4p fighters than the Joplin Ghost?
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol:

    ...no buddy.

    :lol:
    Always a pleasure Matt; i promise to come back and look this over before my decision on Dillon is final. My overall feeling though, is unshaken.
     
  3. turbotime

    turbotime Hall Of Famer Full Member

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  4. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    Which will put him in the same tier as Hagler and we'll be settled.

    To summarize what I was going to respond with, it's less that there's 20 spaces between them and more that there's a tier between them. You put 200 guys below Hagler and above Hopkins but leave room for the argument the other way then whatever, but you put even just one spot between them yet imply that that one spot cannot at all be crossed then it starts to bother me. Your list is telling me there is no argument. It's saying that he's just straight up, undeniably, can't-be-argued better and greater. Than Hopkins or Spinks, either way. I disagree with that and have said why, but as I originally stated, it isn't a big issue. It's not like 'this guy has to be on the list' or 'Ezz > Fitz, dammit.' You asked for objections and that was the one thing that I liked least about it.

    Much as I've enjoyed the thread, an I have quite a lot, you are mostly right about me and lists. I'm becoming less and less concerned with them, if they are my own. I like knowing about great fighters and the history of the sport and having some sort of context for just how great they are - like that Foreman post, I love that **** - but making lists of my own is someting I'm becoming less and less interested in. Bit freeing...


    Note that I am well aware that very little of what I said here makes any damn sense. I don't like it though, that one bit, so you just know that and remember it.
     
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #99 Jung Koo Chang (38-4)

    Still a teenager and with only fourteen professional fights to his name, Chang stopped former WBA light-flyweight strapholder Alfonso Lopez in just three rounds, the final minutes of the fight a clinic in fluidity on offense and variance of such maturity it belied his tender years and limited experience. Other fighters might have shoe-shined their way to the title shot behind this impressive display. Instead “The Korean Hawk” opened up the face of future light-flyweight strapholder and countryman, Jong-Kwan Chung, stopping him in six, and then knocked down and outpointed former linear world champion, Amado Ursua. Chang was cleaning house.

    In September of 1982, he dropped a split decision to the superb divisional ruler Hilario Zapata and slipped to 18-1. His prime lay before him.

    It was realized six months later when he rematched Zapata and stopped him in three glittering rounds. Chang, by now, was slipping punches before they were thrown, leading with that same ferocity. When Zapata handled him or steered him now, he found a step and punched, slipping from orthodox to southpaw and back again, always ready to hit. Zapata quit. The body attack was too deep. Chang had crested.

    Over the next five years, he successfully defended his title an astonishing sixteen times. His pre-title run taken in tandem with his championship years makes for an incredible period of dominance and in a heavyweight would have seen him lauded and feted beyond measure. Unfortunately Chang’s title run took place in an unfashionable in-between division and almost exclusively in Korea where he was considered a national treasure. When he retired from the ring in 1987, his record stood at 35-1. Had money worries not forced him back into the ring a year later for a disastrous 1-3 run, his single loss would have been inflicted upon him by a world champion during his apprenticeship. His talents and achievements make him deserving of recognition as one of the greatest fighters of all time.


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  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    But the tiers are not a part of the list. The tiers were just to make the names into managable chunks. Arbitrary groups of 4-10 fighters with a specific invitation to argue. No compelling argument was presented in favour of ranking Hagler considerably lower (I would suggest that this is because no compelling argument really exists).

    So the tiers invited argument. The list is a result of the argument. I am not so arrogant as to say this ranking is definitive - i do say they can be defended comfortably.

    Of course it isn't! But a LIST from one to a HUNDRED is gong to have fighters written with the names one above the other :lol:

    Yes, that's definitely healthy. I agree with that outlook overall. Lists are a function. I'll say personally that there isn't a thread on this forum where i've learned more, either through pursuing the rankings or reading other people's input. That'st the stuff too.

    That's good. Last part was top though.
     
  7. turbotime

    turbotime Hall Of Famer Full Member

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    Collins and Fleischer would have done it. McG a G.
     
  8. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    Tell me that you could see Hopkins or Spinks as being greater than Hagler and my mind will be at ease for all eternity.
     
  9. turbotime

    turbotime Hall Of Famer Full Member

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    Well yes but the RING magazines ranking the top punchers and top 80 were great reads regardless of the rankings. Tons of information in them, like 2 pages long per fighter.
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I absolutely could.
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think it's great fun.
     
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #98 Nicolino Locche (117-4-14)

    When a fighter gets to have over one hundred fights and fewer than ten losses, he is going to be something special. On paper, Locche’s gaining over-but-under status is even more impressive in that two of those losses—the rematch with Antonio Cervantes and his failed title defense against Alfonso Frazier—came in title matches past his prime rather than in a terrible trudge through journeyman mire, the way great careers fought by men in search of money so often end up. With Locche though, nothing is ever straightforward.

    His 1966 draw with the great Carlos Ortiz, almost certainly an illegitimate result, does call some aspects of his career, those fourteen draws paramount among them, into question.

    He unquestionably dominated a deep South American scene between 1958 and 1968 posting just two losses in those ten years and there is absolutely no doubting his 1968 domination of the ultra-aggressive and heavily favored Takeshi Fuji in his December light-welterweight title tilt. Locche was brilliant. At his best, the Argentine redefined “unhittable,” standing rather than dancing, sometimes seeking out the ropes and corners and inviting his bigger-hitting opponents to lash out at him, making them miss by centimeters and then countering. In a sporting culture obsessed with technique we hear a great deal about the rule-breakers who seemingly bend space and time to their very will, but even amongst the Alis and the Peps of the sport, Locche is King Maverick. On offense, his left hand was his weapon of choice and his left-hook was extraordinary, part feint every time he threw it because the arch of the punch was impossible to pick until the very last instant before it would land on head or body. Against Fuji he absolutely brutalized the ribs, forcing his guard down and taxing him with one of the neatest right uppercuts of his era, which he used in part to close one of Fuji’s eyes. When the Japanese shook his head at the end of the ninth you don’t feel the typical disgust of the fight fan in the face of quittage but rather a little sorry for him. Fuji, an alpha-dog who embraced machismo in boxing as much as any great Mexican you care to mention had been utterly befuddled.

    On this type of form it is easy to believe the legend that has Locche winning every single round of his first contest with the wonderful Cervantes. Indeed, benefit of the doubt is key when ranking “El Intocable.” Taking his paper record at face value, he should perhaps be higher. Finding consistently against him would leave him languishing just outside. Here, we strike the middle ground and find him nestling just inside the top one-hundred.


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  13. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    Lovin' it. Big George and Chang, two of my favourite fighters of all time, make the top 100 and Lopez doesn't.

    By the way, I'll have to make a boxing.com account to get stuck in with you when you get the inevitable 'where was Ricardo Lopez' comments, which I'm sure you will. I expect this to do healthy traffic, I really think it's awesome you have done a better version of what they did, for free, and pretty damn quickly.

    It's nice work mate, fair play. Took me three to four hours at least for 200 f'n words! Well, for about 500, which painstakingly gets cut down and all my favourite info' dies a death, losing it's last chance to meet the masses.
     
  14. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    Misinterpretation of the tier system is all.
     
  15. Mr Butt

    Mr Butt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    No your normal McGrain is just a lunatic