Harry Greb vs. Fritzie Zivic 15rds.

The black media didnt give the white fighters credit who they felt didnt deserve it. Bottom line is Harry greb scrpped with black fighters when many wouldnt. You just sound mad about it

 

Nobody is denying that there was racism in boxing, especially in the earlier part of the 20th Century.

But instead of targetting those that reinforced racism, or failed to make a stand against it...you're attacking Harry Greb, an example of someone who gave black contenders every chance to win his titles. The article that Surf-Bat posted proves this fact...i.e, that many black people at the time respected Greb. Surf-Bat quoted chapter and verse at you, and posted sources so you can educate yourself...and you're still denying the hard evidence.

How can you say "I didn't pass any judgment on Greb" when you posted:

Clearly, you were not just passing judgment but damning the man! Worse, you admit that you are doing so from a position of ignorance about Greb and his achievements. And worst of all, even when far more knowledgeable posters correct you, instead of acknowledging this and retracting your erroneous statements...you still go on making excuses for your untenable stance.

 

Those fixed fights really helped Harry against flowers didnt they

 

Im a cynical individual and dont always believe because it is written , so it shall be, especially when it comes to the most curruptable sport that ever exsited at a time when fight fixing was most predominant. Worse things have happened..........If it was against the law to own footage of Jack Johnson, favoritism, biased writing or even fixed fights is not beyond the realm of possibility to give the demanding public what they wanted to and prevent civil unrest.......As the decades pass the legend will of undoubtedly grown and grown. ...Im not saying im right and i maybe i am wrong, but think outside the box....

 

Did Jack Johnson not take a dive against Willard?

 

no, i'd say 80%+ it was legit, older fatter men get tired qicker than well trained, younger men. especially in v.hot conditions

 

But Johnson admitted himself he threw the fight. His confession featured in an issue of ring mag during the 1950's.

 

he talked all sorts of shite, as do lots of other fighters talking about their losses

maybe he could have got up, but he was going to lose whatever, not the power to ko willard and not the stamina to outlast him and he knew it, he was a smart guy, why take more punishment

 

Yes it was, often in favor of the Black fighter. John L. Sullivan was roundly lambasted by the white press for not facing Peter Jackson. Dempsey was thrashed for not fighting Wills (heck, he was even once thrashed for refusing an exhibition with one [Joe Jeannette]). The decision that gave Mickey Walker the title from Tiger Flowers was roasted. An entire generation of fighters were chided for avoiding Sam Langford (a poem was even written about it).

If that were the case then there would have been NO black champions in the first half-century of boxing. Period. And this political thing you speak of would have made sure that every single challenger for the title was white. Since Gans, Dixon, Walcott, Johnson and Dixie Kid won world titles, I think it is safe to assume that your theory is incorrect, yes?

So give us a list of fights that you feel were a case of a black fighter getting the shaft by judges favoring a white fighter. It would have been easy to get away with considering the racism of the times. So there should be a ton of shining examples of this, right? I'm not asking for a ton, only a handful. So give me a few.

And just for the record, a large number of boxing writers were VERY liberal and were very flattering in their appraisal of top black fighters back then. Get off Wiki and go utilize those sources I gave you. They will show you that this is true.

 

And most people (that I'm aware of) pooh-pooh'd Johnson's claim and rightfully so. Many seemed to feel that Johnson was merely making an excuse for the fact that he got beaten for the title. By most accounts Jack was a vain and egotistical man and always liked to be sure that he was center stage. Many thought this to be merely another one of those attention-seeking antics and excuse making.

 

You need to go post on John Garfield's "when have you been the most wrong about a fighter?" thread. Your statement on Greb is wrong and would make for a good post there.

I'm joking of course . No biggie. Pretty much everyone here has been wrong at one time or another and corrected by one of our more well-informed brethren. Nothing to be embarrassed about.:bbb

No go utilize those sources I gave you so you can have a more informed opinion on Greb and racism in boxing. That way you wont keep coming on here and making wild statements that have no basis in reality. The Greb one was a humdinger.

 

It can be a healthy to have a measure of cynicism and to think outside the box. Nothing wrong with that.

What everyone should try to do is seek the truth of things...and after you've done your research, THEN you can possibly make a well-informed and controversial opinion; one which you can back up with hard facts and sources. That's what many of the best posters on this forum do.

But it is not what you have done here. You have denigrated a legendary fighter by saying:

You tossed that out while admitting you're "not educated enough to pass judgment on Greb." atsch Then, when you are corrected by more knowledgeable posters quoting primary sources, you still refuse to admit you were wrong for denigrating Greb.

If you don't want to admit you were wrong in your statement, and wish to maintain your stance, then you need to research and build a case that Greb's legendary status is largely down to racism. You need to give specific examples about specific fights from reliable primary sources. Until you can do this, (and I very much doubt you can) the weight of all the current evidence is against you, and you look like an idiot, trying to belittle Harry Greb.

Sure, myself included, but the decent thing to do is to admit when you get it wrong, not go on protesting that you might still be right. What's the point in coming to a forum, if you never listen and learn from more knowledgeable people?

 

Do you know why he waited so long to lie? The people that saw the fight knew better... Have you WATCHED that fight? You who put so much store in what you see with your own eyes?

Willard said, "If he was going to throw the fight, I wish he'd done it sooner. It was hotter than hell out there."

So if Johnson was gonna throw the fight why did he wait 26 rounds and take a ass whoopin those last 5 rounds or so to do it? In the 20th round Willard’s corner was telling him to go after Johnson, who was now completely gassed and on the defensive. Willard was gaining confidence with each passing round and becoming increasingly more aggressive.

In the 26th round Willard, who was now in complete control caught Johnson with a tremendous right hand stretching him out on the canvas. Johnson was counted out.

Years later Johnson made the bogus claim that he had taken a dive. But as can be seen on film, Johnson was clearly knocked out. (Willard vs Johnson – YOU TUBE).

But of course all this film work was done in the 1960's by the people who had Kennedy shot on the same lot where the moon landing was faked. Right?

So why would Johnson say he took a dive? Because he would rather be thought a criminal and a fraud than a loser after the fact - that's why. And if you want to talk about racism in Boxing in the 20th century you need to address the color line that Johnson himself drew against men like Harry Wills (colored HW champion of the world during Johnson's reign), and Joe Jennette and Sam McVey and Sam Langford and that list goes on for miles and years...

(crickets chirping....)

 

yes Johnson did take a dive in the 26th round, from a RIGHT CROSS he dove straight to the canvas...This from Larry Gains one of the top black fighters of Greb's era, who wrote about Harry Greb :
"He was something to see. He had this beautiful silk dressing gown. His hair was parted down the middle in a pomadour style and his face was heavily powdered. At first glance he could be mistaken for a dude in another line of work. But he was the FIGHTERS FIGHTER who was held in AWE by his generation of boxers. His flat nose , craggy brows and frozen gaze spoke of lessons learned in the hardest rings. NONE could copy his lifestyle...In the words of one critic, Greb " fought like a wild cat and lived like an alley cat ". His outlook was simple :'Prize fighting ain't the noblest
art and I ain't the noblest artist '...
So this is the man that a terrific black fighter Larry Gains was in awe of, alongst all the fighters black and white, orthodox and southpaw, that the great Harry Greb took on in his short illustrious life that you, to stir the pot
cast aspersions on...Man up...