Ali-Liston II and Joe Walcott

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BillB, Mar 10, 2013.


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  1. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Discussions of this fight usually center on the phantom punch and whether it was legit or if Liston took a dive. Let's don't go there this time. It is irrelevant to what follows.

    Liston went down about midway through the 1st round.
    Ali refused to go to a neutral corner for close to 17 seconds.
    When he finally did, Liston was up within a couple of seconds.

    According to any existent rules of boxing, this was not a knockout.
    The knockout count does not start until the fighter who scored the knockdown is in the farthest neutral corner.

    When Liston was on his feet, referee Walcott signaled to fight to resume, as he should have.

    A few seconds later, Walcott changed his mind, stopped the fight and awarded Ali a KO victory over Liston.

    I think we can all agree this was an improper call on Walcott's part. The record books should be corrected to classify this fight a NC.

    This has always been attributed to Walcott being a poor referee who was confused about what had gone on. It is also blamed on Nat Fleischer who had summoned Walcott to ringside and told him to stop the fight because Liston had been down for over 10 seconds.

    I don't buy it.

    Walcott knew the rules of boxing. He had spent 30 years in the ring and was very aware of the neutral corner rule. He knew exactly how it worked.
    There is no way his actions were the result of an honest mistake.
    What Fleischer may have told him makes no difference. Walcott knew better. (So did Fleischer for that matter).

    Why did Walcott award the fight to Ali? Any thoughts?

    I think there can be only one conclusion.
     
    BillB, Mar 10, 2013
    BillB, Mar 10, 2013
    #1
  2. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Cos he was a shite referee who got caught up in the action.

    Ali drops liston who did beat the count issued to him. Credit to Ali for doing what he had to do but I think liston got a raw deal.
     
    lufcrazy, Mar 10, 2013
    lufcrazy, Mar 10, 2013
    #2
  3. Saltzy

    Saltzy Bam-O Full Member

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    He was told to stop the fight by someone I believe, yelled at him that it was past a ten second count. I think it should have continued. Liston took a few shots against the ropes and seemed to have his legs just fine.
     
    Saltzy, Mar 10, 2013
    Saltzy, Mar 10, 2013
    #3
  4. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    A ringside observer told him it was a KO and he believed that without being 100% clear on the neutral corner rule
     
    PowerPuncher, Mar 10, 2013
    PowerPuncher, Mar 10, 2013
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  5. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    That's the point of this thread.

    How could Walcott not have been 100% clear on the neutral corner rule?

    He had been observing it for 30 years. He had to know exactly what it meant. It isn't complicated.

    That's like a 30 year traffic cop not knowing what a STOP sign means.
     
    BillB, Mar 10, 2013
    BillB, Mar 10, 2013
    #5
  6. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Despite spending the vast majority of my life studying mathematics I still have to practice some questions before teaching them to a class.

    People can make mistakes, especially in a high profile high pressure situation like that.

    How many fight did jersey ever referee?
     
    lufcrazy, Mar 10, 2013
    lufcrazy, Mar 10, 2013
    #6
  7. ron u.k.

    ron u.k. Boxing Addict banned

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    All I know wether the fix was in or not the most surprised man in the place when Sonny went down was Ali. He actually stands over Liston gestures for him to get up and shouts "get up ya bum"
     
    ron u.k., Mar 10, 2013
    ron u.k., Mar 10, 2013
    #7
  8. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Agreed.
    Ali was totally taken by surprise.
    In his immediate post-fight interview, Ali didn't know if he had hit Liston with his right hand or his left hand. He said he would have to watch the tapes.
     
    BillB, Mar 10, 2013
    BillB, Mar 10, 2013
    #8
  9. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I understand what you're saying.

    I'll bet you wouldn't have to practice to answer "what does 2+2 equal?"

    I think that is a rough equivalent to the neutral corner rule for Walcott- about as basic as it gets.

    I don't know how many fights he refereed. That may have been the only one.
     
    BillB, Mar 10, 2013
    BillB, Mar 10, 2013
    #9
  10. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    It's not an equivalent at all because if the emotional aspect. However many fights he had as a boxer, he was very inexperienced as a ref.

    The young world champion had just knocked down the supposed baddest man on the planet with a quick short punch. He was surprised and woefully unprepared to handle the situation. He got confused and ****ed up.

    I agree with your sentiment about it being a NC. Liston got a raw deal.
     
    lufcrazy, Mar 10, 2013
    lufcrazy, Mar 10, 2013
    #10
  11. Skins

    Skins Boxing Addict Full Member

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    By the rules he shouldn't have started the count until Ali went to a neutral corner. Ali was running around like a maniac and Joe got confused. Nat Fleischer, who hated Liston's guts, called Joe over and told him the count had reached 10 and the fight was over. Joe, in his confused state then went and stopped the fight. Joe should never had been the ref in this fight, with the title on the line they should have a real pro in there. Remember how Joe Louis almost got Jerry Quarry killed against Joe Frazier? These old champs really shouldn't be refs in big fights. Anyway, Sonny didn't seem to complain and it is doubtful he would have beaten Ali on that night.
     
    Skins, Mar 10, 2013
    Skins, Mar 10, 2013
    #11
  12. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It was Walcott's first big fight as a referee, and he was not prepared for it. Just with that, there is reasonable doubt about Walcott's guilt concerning a fix.

    Pressure is a strange beast, it can make people at the top of their career make ridiculous mistakes. And although Walcott was a top boxer, he was a novice referee.

    You might think Lionel Messi could dominate a European Cup Final, and be man of the match as a player, but give him a whistle and a couple of cards and tell him to ref, chances are things will not work so well...
     
    TBooze, Mar 10, 2013
    TBooze, Mar 10, 2013
    #12
  13. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    i like the analogy :good
     
    lufcrazy, Mar 10, 2013
    lufcrazy, Mar 10, 2013
    #13
  14. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Liston didn't complain a bit. I wonder why he didn't.

    There is no doubt that he did not lose that fight. He may have if it had continued, but at the time it was stopped he had not lost.
     
    BillB, Mar 10, 2013
    BillB, Mar 10, 2013
    #14
  15. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Having jersey as a ref was a terrible idea.
     
    lufcrazy, Mar 11, 2013
    lufcrazy, Mar 11, 2013
    #15
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