Pacquiao of the Cotto fight beats Mayweather

Pac was still raw in that first fight, he had improved substantially since that time. See the 2nd fight, which was much more of a back and forth technical boxing match.

I'm not minimizing JMM's success, I'm explaining why he had success and why it has nothing to do with Floyd. If anything your underrating JMM.

He didn't flinch because he knows Pacquiao after having fought him endless times as I explained. What's so hard to understand about that? If he's so easy to predict why haven't other fighters outside of JMM been able to have that kind of success?

If that's the case why was the fight such a back and forth affair? Not too mention Pacquiao was still a one handed fighter and had nothing resembling a defense at that time. Morales couldn't replicate what he did in the 2nd and 3rd fights.

Where is the simple 'raw, physical strength, and speed' being expressed here:

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Looks to me like he's counter-punching, no?



or here

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Looks like a beautiful display of boxing / moving, changing angles..




What do you think he's doing here? Is this raw speed and power or is he timing Marquez jab with a flush counter?

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:huh That's exactly what he does. What do you think this is:

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Did you not notice the little feint at the end that trapped Mosley in place?



Again you need to pay a little more attention to what your watching. Your impression of Pacquiao is totally off.

I guarantee you he'd be hitting more then arms and shoulder if Floyd doesn't change his habits, and that's unlikely.



If Judah and Corley can hit Floyd flush, so can Pacquiao

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So it's Floyd plan to back off in straight lines and lay on the ropes? I've seen him do that in most of his fights.

It depends on the siutation, but it's been proven to be advantageous against Paquiao who's an excellent combination puncher himself ,and who tends to swarm opponents who A: don't use consistent lateral movement , and/or B: don't put punches together to keep him off. Look at the exchanges between Pacquiao and Marquez , you'll notice Marquez backs him off very often with combinations. If you throw only one shot Pac can eat it up and come back with his own, like the following:

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The same could be said for Pacquiao, and Floyd counts on his opponents tiring out.

That conservative / ultra defensive mindset nature is double-edged sword against a fighter like Pacquiao as i explained.

Right, he rushed him by attacking on the front foot and unloading combinations on him. When have you seen Floyd do that?

Where did I say Pacquiao would KO Floyd, or beat him ala Hatton?? My first choice would actually be a Pac UD or a late stoppage (TKO).

Why is it so hard to believe. We've seen Floyd hurt badly against lesser fighters - Demarcus Corley, and a shot Mosley come to mind. We've seen him hit and look beatable against lesser fighters as well.

 

Wait...

Pacquiao of the Cotto fight would beat Mayweather of ___________ fight? What's the exact claim here? Pacquiao of the Cotto fight could beat any version of Mayweather or what?

 

a ******* trying to show off Pacquiao's counter punching skills against MARGARITO :roflatsch

 

Well, Yes... Maybe the counter-punching part is not that impressive, but you gotta give him credit for his lateral movement. If he didn't have a good footwork, he'd get overwhelmed just like Cotto.

 

GT is obviously heavily biased towards Pac but his arguments are valid. I remember telling people that Cotto's defensive lateral movement against Margarito would be effective against Floyd, they laughed, and then Cotto won one of his clearest rounds doing just that.

Make Floyd chase a good mover, make Margarito chase that same good mover, and I think you'll find that there's probably not that much difference in how often they get in range. There will be stark differences in accuracy of punches, speed of punches, the sophistication of the traps set, etc. But in terms of getting to the guy on the ground stalking, there's probably not much between them.

Unless Manny permanently declines or Floyd has success countering him in the first half of the fight, I don't see Floyd having success coming forward. Too risky the way he leans in on the front foot with his chin out.

 

I would say that the Pacquiao who ko ODLH
had more than 50% chance of defeating Floyd.

 

Yet he came out of retirement to fight Pac, started the negociation after the Cotto fight, conceded to 14 day cut off in which team Pac ran from the negociation table to fight Clottey and then Arum tried to lie and say that 14 days was neer offered only to be outed by the mediator.

 

Pac relies on being the better athlete with faster hands and foot speed. If you are a fighter the moslty relies on overpowering your opponent with strength Pac will probably beat you up since you won't be able to hit him much and he will be able to tag you a lot.

If you are a defensive counter puncher who uses movement, fients, angles, timing then you will stand a way better shot at beating Pac depending on your level.

Pac would have gottten some hits in on Mayweather but Mayweather wouldn't have come close to taking the amount of hits that Hoya, Cotto, Clottey or Margarito took. Old shot Mosley deflated Pac's volume just with movement but was scared to pull the trigger on his right hand which was there all night because he didn't trust his hand speed vs Pac. At the same time Mayweather would be countering Pac and getting a lot more hits in on Pac then Cotto or Margarito etc because he relies more on counter punching and timing then those guys do plus has superior hands, footwork, footspeed, reflexes then anyone Pac has ever faced.

Compare Mayweather's hand speed, timing, footowork, reflexes to Cotto. What happends when Pac is seeing return fire faster then his own hand speed with picture perfect timing on top of it and reflexes to slip just as many punches. The 3-5 punches per instance that Cotto took would be 1-2 by Mayweather with a crisp counter punch that makes Pac have to rethink his approach.

 

Anyone who doesn't think the Pacquiao of 2008-2010 gives Mayweather tonnes of problems is extremely biased - Maywether is a master but Pacquiao was a beast. Whenever Mayweather fights a very offensive in your face fighter he is given problems and not one of them hold a candle to the Pacquiao of that time.

Both in their prime is a very difficult fight to call.

And please stop comparing Marquez and Mayweather, they are such different fighters that it's a ridiculous comparison - styles make fights! Only a boxing idiot comes out with "If Marquez beats him, then Mayweather does even better"

 

I'm not sure whether we agree or disagree here. The point I am making is that a good skilled technical boxer will not be fooled by Pac's feints because Pac is not good at feinting. Regardless of what you chalk the first fight to, not once in four fights was JMM ever really confused about what was coming next or when.

The fights were back and forth affairs because Pac is a beast with speed, power and (dare I say) inhuman stamina. He doesn't really care if he gets hit because he thinks he's going to come away better off in the exchange (even when he is not -- see Morales I, JMM IV). So to say that all you have to do to beat Pac is neutralize his physical attributes isn't saying that that's an easy task.

It couldn't be more plain. Yes Pac shows good counter punching and footwork in those clips(I never said Pac couldn't counter punch/didn't have decent footwork) but where is the deception. Who would question that Pac could run circles around Margo? In fact that fight could have looked a lot like the first 11 rounds of Martinez v. Chavez if Pac wanted to fight that way. Bottom line is Margo isn't fooled about what's coming or when, he just doesn't know how to handle it. Pac beat his a$$ with speed, power and stamina just like I said in my post.

This is silly. It's a good counter punch, but does Marquez go down from a jab if it doesn't have power? Let me make my position clear if you replace Pacquiao's power with Malinaggi's and he fights the same way, he loses nearly every fight to anybody.

Good feint. My criticism is relative. Relative to other elite boxers. Pac would not make the top 100 feint/deception list. In fact, if you took nearly anyone's top 100 ATG list Pac would be in the fifth quintile. Having more than 80 greater than out of 100 at a skill, means that skill is not your strong suit.

Can Pac feint better than a 4 year old or even an amateur boxer? I hope so. Can Pac fool Mosely a few times in a fight (Mosely is not the most difficult to fool), especially when Mosely is scared of Pac's power? I hope so. Does that make Pac good at Feinting/deception? No.

Sure, Pac would connect with Floyd 15-20% of the time (like everyone else) of the 15-20% of connects 5% or fewer would be really good flush shots. (Notice Zab fires 5 shots and lands 1 in your gif). Whereas Floyd would land 45ish% of his shots and 50+% would be so sharp they would snap Pacs head back.

Pac's style is to run into the wall until he falls or the wall collapses. Given the probability that Mayweather would be connecting more often than he, and that Mayweather would connect with harder punches, Pac would fall.

JMM is a decent defensive fighter, but nowhere near Mayweather. Pac connected 26.2% of punches (in their first 3 fights -- haven't found stat's for all 5) and landed 13.4 a round. I don't see why anyone would think that Mayweather would get KO'd getting hit with the same output that Marquez was hit with. I don't know why anyone would think that Mayweather would take more hits than Marquez. Neither of those thoughts make much sense. Not only would Mayweather get his with fewer shots, but he would also take less damage from the shots that connect.

Here I was unclear. Floyd's defensive style is very similar in his fights, he changes his offense. He does retreat in straight lines, and he largely gets away with it because he is so quick and his opponents become afraid of counters.

Floyd's offensive style varies with his opponent. He may jab more against some (like against Marquez) he may throw more uppercuts (like against Cotto). He would rather throw single shots that combos, but he threw a lot of combos against Cotto and Ortiz (see opening of 4th round). The bottom line is he adapts to his opponent and takes what he can get easiest from his opponent.

If Floyd can hit Pac (not hard for many fighters, really easy for Floyd) and hurt Pac with straight rights and left hooks (he can, Pac is smaller than he, the only fighters he has had trouble keeping honest are those that significantly outweigh him) than he does not need to throw combos against Pac.

I see Pac fighting the way he always fights, rushing in with Combos. I see Floyd blocking and slipping most of the attacks, finding a flaw or mistake and taking advantage of it to counter hard and return to defense. In 90% of the exchanges Pac would leave taking more damage than Floyd. The fight would continue this way and Pac would either:

1. Reduce his punch volume from the effects of the counters (unlikely and would result in losing a UD),
2. Continue with the same game plan (probable, since I have never seen Pac change up his attack. Would result in a Pac KO or TKO around round 8), or
3. Get lucky (highly improbable. Far inferior defensive fighters have gone 12 rounds with Pac).

I don't agree that ultra defensive is bad against Pac. I also think you may overstate this concept that Floyd counts on his opponents tiring out. Maybe you get that from the Judah or Chavez fights, I don't know. Floyd doesn't take fights off, trains like a beast and probably enters each fight thinking he is in better shape has better stamina than his opponents. I do not think waiting until his opponent gets tired is a significant part of his game plan.

I've never seen Floyd rush like Morales did and he probably wouldn't do that to Pac. I just chose that example to show that Morales knew exactly what Pac was going to do in round 1 (no deception theme again). Floyd doesn't have to do that. There are other ways to skin the cat and Floyd likes his way best.

You didn't. I did. I think that's Pac's best hope.

For Pac to win a UD he would have to connect more than he did against Marquez or Floyd would have to like forget how to counter or something. It's indisputable that Mayweather is a better defensive fighter than Marquez. We also know that Pac is susceptible to counters and Floyd is one of the best counter-punchers ever. It seems completely ridiculous to think that Pac won't be open to counters and even more ridiculous that Floyd would be unable to counter.

Do you think that Pac will be so continuously busy that Floyd can't get work in? Hatton tried that. Hatton was down 22-4 on the judges scorecards. Maybe Chavez is the example of out-busying Floyd. Floyd was up 23-9 on the scorecards and is a far more savvy boxer since that fight.

 

I think he went into the Corley fight expecting a KO since he knew Corley from sparring. Either way he fought that fight more aggressively than usual. The question I have is how hurt was he against Corley? He might have won that round.

To answer your question though, it is ridiculous (not impossible, but ridiculous) Mayweather's fought in 315 rounds and you can count the number of rounds where his probability of getting KO'd was higher than 50% on one hand. You lose your money betting on odds like that.

 

It would have been a great fight for sure however one of them didn't want stronger drug testing and hasn't looked as good since those accusations strangely.

The Mayweather that beat Marquez would have danced around Cotto all night btw, let's not pretend that Mayweather didn't decline since 2009.

 

Pac of 09 is a handful for Mayweather to say the least.

lol at the implication. If Pac looks good, he's on steroids. If he looks bad or loses, it's because hes not on them anymore . Absurd.

Definitely not sure about that one.