The Top 100 Pound for Pound All-Time Greats

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Feb 15, 2013.


  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Monzon.
     
  2. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    At Welter though, there is no-one who I would confidently pick against him.

    As for him and Monzon, I think they have perfect styles for each other in that the way to beat LMR would be too hang tough for the early part then slowly break him down and take him out late, like Benvenuti sort-of showed.

    But I think LMR in his prime was just a bundle of energy always moving and jittering without tiring out late in the fight. On the outside I can see Luis, beating the bigger man to the punch with his faster combination of hand and foot speed. And yes you may say Monzon would time shots as LMR stepped in, but through his use of angleshe was very hard to time and hit as he came at you.

    And even when, inevitably, Monzon did get inside and impose his strength, Luis was no push over inside, infact his infighting is phenomenal. He would be out-working Monzon inside IMO, and stifling alot of Monzons inside work.

    With his movement, array of punches and fitness I can see him out-manuevering Monzon for a decision win. But dont get me wrong it is a big ask for the Cuban.

    How'd you think he'd fare with Hagler? Stylistically he'd be hell for the Marvelous one wouldnt he?
     
  3. Jorodz

    Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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    top 15 i can see but the his resume (as has been said) lacks depth past his best wins.

    those best wins though make him the fighter of the decade
     
  4. turbotime

    turbotime Hall Of Famer Full Member

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    Yeah Mc G about Leonard I just never envisioned you having him top 15...I thought you had him top 20 or so.

    Must be seeing things. This thread is making me do that :lol:
     
  5. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    Both too low for me but I think the third Cokes fight shows he was beatable. Okay, in the first fight he was apparently unmotivated and in the rematch Rodriguez dominated, but the third says a lot. Cokes was very, very good, lush jab and incredible right hand (varied as ****) but was not unbeatable, he had his off nights, and just wasn't impenetrable in terms of application.

    I don't think it shows a weakness of Rodriguez, but his does show that on certain nights, the very best in the division could beat him. You could say that for pretty much anyone.

    I think he'd be horrible for Monzon, but still, you'd have to think Monzon would find his rhythm and get his timing down as he always did and would probably get Rodriguez out of there in the late stages. I wouldn't feel brilliant taking him over 15 over some of the very greatest welters and middles, but over 10 rounds he might well handle any middleweight from Monzon onwards.

    Yes, very much one of the very best of all time. I have him higher, but if the 50-80 are pretty well matched (if you wanted to place one a little higher or lower it wouldn't be hard to justify with this illustrious crowd) so I am very happy with Rodriguez's placing here.

    As McGrain and I discussed earlier, it depends on how much credit you dish out to Rodriguez for the series with Griffith, a 31-40 guy. I give him a lot, hence why he's much higher in my list. McGrain has stated his criteria, which is very fair, and for that reason I can see why he just sees Griffith-Rodriguez as close fights. Whereas I see them as close fights but that Rodriguez came out of them much better.
     
  6. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    Never been that clued up on it, but Cokes KOd him, yeh?

    Thats the thing with LMR he proved his toughness a good few times, taking shots from known punchers and didnt seem to be hurt by them but occasionally (Cokes & Benvenuti) just seemed to be takn out. I really cant explain this. I mean Griffith wasnt a massive puncher but he hits LMR a good few times clean and LMR feels it but he recovers immediatly.

    Overall, LMR has a wird career, I think his general dominance of the era (if you include the Griffith fights, even without them) shows that he is a top top Welterweight, and looking at the footage I wouldnt bet against him at all.

    Exactly, I think he also shows that he could beat the very best on his night.

    I man the 3rd Griffith fight is a great example of 2 ATGS going at it and I think LMR wins clearly, and Griffith is another top WW IMO.

    Thats why I say its a hell of an ask for LMR, but I fancy him to do it. I mean he would be an underdog, I would put him at 3-1 at least, but I would fancy him to pull it off. The only Weltr/Middle I think beats him for sure is Tommy Hearns (but a Welterwight version is a clos to 50-50 fight), oh, and obviously Griffith in New York. ;)

    Yeh, can understand completly its more me living up to a stereotype and being a moaning, gurning Scottish ****.:lol:
     
  7. Bum hopkins

    Bum hopkins Guest

    Where's nicky piper and glen Mclory???
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #80 Jim Driscoll (53-3-5; Newspaper Decisions 7-1)

    The story goes that when Jim Driscoll’s died in January of 1925 and his funeral procession passed through the streets of Cardiff, one-hundred thousand wet-eyed Welshmen and women lined the streets, hats in hands. That was the kind of man he was; both belonging to the people and the master of their hearts.

    100,000 hearts does not get you onto this list, however, so how to explain Driscoll’s absence of a title reign? After all, he is ranked here in front of some of the greatest champions the sport has produced. What happened?

    There is a story here, too. The story says that in 1909 Driscoll, by then boxing in America, met the cynical Abe Attell, one of the greatest featherweights in history, and provided for him a boxing lesson over ten rounds in a non-title bout—only for the cowardly champion to deny Driscoll a rematch for the championship.

    Like all great stories, there are elements of truth…and elements of hokum. There are also some twists that are stranger than fiction. The reason Driscoll did not pursue an immediate rematch with Attell is the same reason that half of Cardiff lined up to pay their final respects, namely that his heart called him to duty rather than glory. Driscoll returned home to box in a benefit for local orphans.

    Attell seemed open to the notion of bringing Driscoll back to the US for a rematch, but when he finally arrived more than a year later it was to lose, whilst in ill health, to Pal Moore who clearly got the better of him in a six round go. Suffering from a serious chest infection, Driscoll returned home to recuperate and the chance was missed.

    That he gave Attell a boxing lesson seems to have been, at least in part, true. The Reading Eagle nominated him “the last word in exquisite boxing skills.” The New York Evening World said that Attell “…tried desperately for a walloping finish. Curiously enough it was during these flurries that he found Driscoll hardest to hit. It’s safe to say that in all his experience Attell has never met with such disappointment…he found himself up against a man who actually beat him in speed and skill.”

    It is also true that newspaper reports can be found which deemed the fight a draw, but for the most part, Driscoll was deemed the superior. Very much in character, Driscoll leapt from the ring and into another, at “a charity barn dance where he boxed for more rounds then danced ‘till the sun rose.”

    He was seen off on his steamship by a huge crowd of Americans who seemed to love him almost as much as the Welsh.

    They had not been so impressed when he arrived. He was seen as small and sickly looking. Whilst it was true that he had bested the master, George Dixon, three times in the UK, including a knockout in five, his wins were over a faded version. He had also bested the best Europeans from bantamweight to lightweight often giving away size but never skill, twin wins over Joe Bowker the highlight. He won them over with brilliance and character.

    His prime ended with his 1911 trouncing of Spike Robson (KO15). Spike had fought draws with Terry McGovern and Abe Attell and held multiple wins over the superb Harlem Tommy Murphy; against Driscoll, he was not in the fight, outclassed and stopped.

    He let himself down a little bit in a DQ loss to fellow genius and Welshman Freddie Welsh, losing his treasured composure whilst being out-generalled by the bigger man but it was one of only four losses—none of which was without circumstances— in the most dignified of boxing careers.


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  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    01 – Sam Langford
    02 – Harry Greb
    03 – Sugar Ray Robinson
    04 – Henry Armstrong
    05 – Ezzard Charles
    06 – Bob Fitzsimmons
    07 – Benny Leonard
    08 – Muhammad Ali
    ---------------------------------------
    09 – Willie Pep
    10 – Joe Louis
    11 – Roberto Duran
    12 – Joe Gans
    13 – Packey McFarland
    14 – Archie Moore
    15 – Sugar Ray Leonard
    16 – Mickey Walker
    -------------------------------------------
    17 – Barney Ross
    18 – Terry McGovern
    19 – Tony Canzoneri
    20 – Pernell Whitaker
    21 – Charley Burley
    22 – Holman Williams
    23 – Jimmy McLarnin
    24 – Sandy Saddler
    -------------------------------
    25 - George Dixon
    26 - Barbados Joe Walcott
    27 - Stanley Ketchel
    28 - Billy Conn
    29 - Kid Gavilan
    30 -Roy Jones
    31- Gene Tunney
    32 - Tommy Gibbons
    33 - Tommy Loughran
    34 – Jack Britton
    -----------------------------------------
    35 – Eder Jofre
    36 – Jose Napoles
    37 – Carlos Monzon
    38 – Jimmy Bivins
    39 – Marvin Hagler
    40 – Tommy Ryan
    41 – Jack Dillon
    42 - Emile Griffith
    43 –Alexis Arguello
    44 – Ike Williams
    45 – Jimmy Wilde
    ----------------------------
    46 – Julio Cesar Chavez
    47 – Ruben Olivares
    48 – Fighting Harada
    49 – Carlos Ortiz
    50 – Michael Spinks
    51 – Young Corbett
    52 – Thomas Hearns
    53 - Floyd Mayweather
    54 - Manny Pacquiao
    55 – Evander Holyfield
    56 – Freddie Steele
    57 – Abe Attell
    58 – Mike Gibbons
    59 - Bernard Hopkins
    60 - Ted Kid Lewis
    61 - Luis Manuel Rodriguez
    62 - Salvador Sanchez
    63 - Wilfredo Gomez
    64 - Vicente Saldivar
    65 - Rocky Marciano
    -----------------------------------
    66 - Lou Ambers
    67 - Freddie Welsh
    68 - Manuel Ortiz
    69 - Dick Tiger
    70 - Harold Johnson
    71 - Carmen Basilio
    72 - Carlos Zarate
    73 - Miguel Canto
    74 - Oscar De La Hoya
    75 - Azumah Nelson
    76 - Mike McCallum
    77 - Lary Holmes
    78 - Bob Foster
    79 - Teddy Yarosz
    80 - Jim Driscoll
    81 - Panama Al Brown
    82 - Pascual Perez
    83 - Lloyd Marshall
    84 – Jake LaMotta
    85 - Juan Manuel Marquez
    86 – Wilfred Benitez
    87 – Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
    88 – Erik Morales
    89 – Marco Antonio Barrera
    90 - Young Griffo
    91 - Fritzie Zivic
    92 - Joe Frazier
    93 - Pete Herman
    94 - Lennox Lewis
    95 - Jack "Kid" Berg
    96 - Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
    97 - James Toney
    98 - Nicolino Locche
    99 - Jung Koo Chang
    100-George Foreman
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #79 Teddy Yarosz (107-18-3)

    Teddy Yarosz hit like a girl. In 128 fights he posted a pitiful 17 knockouts. In spite of his total inability to punch hard enough to make the definitive impression he beat Lloyd Marshall, Nate Bolden, Archie Moore, Ken Overlin, Ralph DeJohn, Billy Conn, Lou Brouillard, Solly Krieger, Vince Dundee, Jimmy Smith, Tommy Freeman, Ben Je—you get the point.

    Yarosz lifted a piece of the middleweight title in 1934 and unified later that year against Vince Dundee. The only black marks from the prime that followed came against Babe Risko, who went 1-2 against Yarosz but only after the Pittsburgh man fractured his knee in both of those losing efforts. A pair of losses to all-time great Billy Conn make sense on paper, but both of these fights were hugely controversial. When the decision for the first fight was read the ring was pelted with seat cushions and bottles, a cacophony of booing drowning out the cheers of the Conn fans.

    “Billy is a good boy,” said Yarosz. “But I certainly beat him.”

    In the second fight, Yarosz seemed to be winning out of sight but a near collapse in the championship rounds seemed to offer Conn a glimmer—and Conn took full advantage, beating Yarosz around the ring like a bad dog for a seeming endless nine minutes. Although he greeted the final bell with near total collapse the press were near unanimous in seeing Yarosz the winner but the judges, again, chose Billy. A third fight was inevitable and Yarosz finally received a decision. A brilliant performance against a heavily favored Archie Moore in 1939 would be his best post-Conn performance, although he also went 1-1 Lloyd Marshall.

    Grace, speed a superb jab and two-handed punching (often to the body) were the main ingredients in Teddy’s great success. The addition of power would have made him amongst the most complete fighters in the history of the middleweight division.


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  11. Jorodz

    Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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    mcgrain i may not agree with every placement but i really commend the effort and research you've put into this project. and you can probably justify every damn decision
     
  12. Mr Butt

    Mr Butt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The first paragraph is enough to suggest teddy should be a little higher
     
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Cheers, and, I would hope so!

    The fighters ranked immediately higher are two of the most dominant champions in history, one is completely unbeaten at his best weight, the other posted enough defences to see him rated as one of the greatest champions in history. I don't think a paragraph is quite enough to overhaul these boys.
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #78 Bob Foster (56-8-1)

    Bob Foster lost eight fights, but not one of them was to a light-heavyweight. At 175 lbs., his best weight, he went through his entire career unbeaten. His competition was not exceptional, but he was. It can be argued that Foster is the single hardest puncher that has ever boxed, and whilst his division was not resplendent with talent, it was resplendent with iron chins. Didn’t matter. Foster was one of those freaky-deaky punchers, the kind of guys who seem to carry dynamite that has been blessed by a voodoo priest then coated in astrolite before being planted in gloves mounted with cyanide tipped nine-inch nails.

    Seemingly too upright and too slouched at the same time, Foster appeared as some terrifying prehistoric bird all legs and feathers, both fragile and deadly. That fragility was exposed up at heavyweight where all of Foster’s losses occurred and where he failed to turn in a single top-class scalp despite repeated opportunities. Nevertheless he did beat something in the region of twenty fighters weighing in over the light-heavyweight limit, work that does enhance his standing slightly on this pound-for-pound list. But it is that incredible unbeaten run at light-heavyweight that locks him up, a run that include some sixteen victorious title fights. Losses to Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier can’t be seen to hurt him much, and although losses to the lesser lights of Doug Jones, Mauro Mina, Ernie Terrell and Zora Folley may have an air of disappointment about them, they all occurred before he hit his absolute stride, during which time only all-time great heavyweights found a way to lay him low.


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  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #77 Larry Holmes (69-6)

    Larry Holmes staged dual comebacks in 1988 and 1991, the first a result of a big money offer to come straight out of retirement and match Mike Tyson, the second a surprisingly meandering stroll through the peaks and valleys of the 1990s heavyweight scene—in fact Holmes boxed all the way into the 2000s, stopping an equally creaky Mike Weaver in 2002 in the sixth round. Larry’s decision to box on did not seem born of financial insecurity or an unquenchable ego but because of an unerring desire to dominate. You can see it for every moment Larry Holmes is in the ring, whether you are watching the young man go to war with Ken Norton or the old man chasing the twenty years younger Anthony Willis.

    The tools he brought to bear in this oldest of ambitions were formidable. Holmes argues the best jab, the best right hand and the best footwork in the history of the heavyweight division. You may have a personal preference for Sonny Liston or Joe Louis or Muhammad Ali in each of these areas respectively but it is beyond question that Holmes belongs in those debates. Add a granite chin, superb accuracy, some dig, technical accomplishment unequaled in heavyweight history and that natural proclivity for domination and you have a fully-fledged 215 lb. war machine.

    This birthed the most celebrated reign in WBC championship history— until it came to make more financial sense to adopt the IBF trinket, at which point Holmes happily changed allegiances, defending the new bauble until he was shockingly separated from it by a brilliant Michael Spinks in September of ’85. Holmes was already slipping by this point and it is arguably the case that he went through his entire prime unbeaten. The reason he is in the top 80 rather than the top 70? Well, he arguably did not.

    Holmes had a desperately close call in the match in which he lifted the title against Ken Norton in a fight I thought he lost (the judges awarded him a split decision). No rematch was forthcoming; a criticism that would be leveled against Holmes again when he was arguably beaten by a novice Tim Witherspoon in their 1983 confrontation which I scored a draw (the judges, again, handed it to Holmes on a split). He also seemed adverse to unification fights and his reign is littered with alternative heavyweight strapholders. His failure to meet a surging Greg Page instead of opting for the limited Marvis Frazier (whom he dispatched in a single round) was also a concern. Holmes, like Jack Dempsey, arguably missed out on some of the most important fights of his career and many of his defenses were soft.

    Unlike Dempsey, he was an enormously busy champion who busted up a huge raft of top-class contenders over a seven-year period that included twenty successful title fights and a stretch of 48-0. He won his first meaningful fight in 1978 and his last in 1992. Like Lennox Lewis he was more feared than loved—but, when he was in the ring at least, that suited Holmes just fine.


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