88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

Holmes was still a very, very good heavyweight when Tyson annihilated him. Look at his resume post Tyson.

Tyson was just on another level ... no one ever destroyed Holmes like that. The only way you could hope to even survive against prime Tyson was to hold on for dear life .... not even Ali would be able to beat 1988 Iron Mike Tyson.

 

I think you have to give Ali the slight edge. Foreman puts it really well here.

Ali was a guy that you was not going to whip. You knock him down, whatever, he's going to be there. The last bell ring he's going to be there. Mike Tyson has not proven himself to be that kind of guy. He's a frontrunner, as long as he ahead he'll whip you but if he gets behind he's not the kind of guy to come from behind and catch up. But Muhammad Ali, he would always have something in reserve.

Foreman also sort of simply said, "Ali can handle the punchers I think but had more trouble with the 1-2-3-4-5 type guys (Referencing Joe Frazier). Eddie Futch said the same thing in regards to the relentless speed of pressure Frazier put on Ali. Tyson simply didn't put that kind of pressure on fighters (Obviously, Bonecrusher Smith can tell you). While Atlas is a known Tyson hater he made a decent point about Tyson getting into this silent agreements with tying up fighters that he couldn't put away. Sort of a "I won't punch if you won't punch." I do think this could be a valid point to a degree but it could also have more to do with Tyson's stamina and lack of in-fighting confidence. Tyson style took so much explosion and energy that he put such intentions in every combination and punch that he needed breaks. As Atlas points out, "Ali wouldn't let him rest. He wouldn't give to those type of agreements." It's a fair point, I think.

At the same time, Tyson had incredibly explosive speed & power. Atlas acknowledged that he was terrific at moving his head and taking away the jab. That was his best quality, he admitted. Perhaps Tyson is the one fighter phenomenal enough to make Ali pay for his bad mistakes and flaws as a fighter. It's a tough one.

 

Not always true

Tyson came back to beat Botha when clearly behind

Not saying Ali is like Botha but Tyson's power is always a threat

 

Foreman said this during an unreleased HBO documentary that was released far before the Botha fight. Fair point but honestly we're talking about Botha. It was a great shot, but it's not as if Tyson wasn't frustrated in that fight. Didn't he try breaking Botha's arm?

 

Ali's not going to let Tyson rest on the inside? Since when does Ali actually do anything inside? He just clinches and that's it. See the Terrell fight, for example, Ali does nothing but clinch on the inside. I myself was wondering if maybe Ali could do what Bonecrusher Smith did but I don't think Ali would fight like that.

 

He might be punching in between the ranges of clinching and punching. I realized that thought when I wrote it. Either way, it benefits him that Tyson likes to take breaks on the inside anyway.

I don't remember a lot of clinching against Terrell. I remember a lot of punching, taunting, and shouting.

 

Ive already done a thread on this

Im at work, ill find the link later

Rooney, Cayton, Torres, Atlas, Holmes and Patterson all picked Ali to beat Tyson

Im the biggest Tyson fan here, but even i know, he wont beat Ali, but if he caught him ala Cooper, Alis not getting back up

 

Tyson is a better finisher than those guys and a better chin to boot. And I never said he knocks Ali out.

 

Tyson left Rooney and Cayton. Don't know Anything about Torres.

Taking Atlas' opinion of Tyson seriously is like taking Hitler's opinion of Jews seriously.

Holmes--bitter about ass kicking
Patterson--got his ass kicked twice minus the bitterness

I think of it like this: Frazier gave Ali all he could handle. Ali was better in 67, but not night and day better. And Tyson was quite a bit better than Frazier, in my opinion, and proved himself against similar fighters to Ali. Think Tyson probably wins in a rush in-clinch-reset type affair.

 

Ali W 12 in a clear, but not easy 12 or 15 round decision.

 

So you think he wins by decision then?

 

Ali fought Frazier and Norton in the 70's so those two fights has no immediate bearing on what Ali could do or not do against an 88' version of Tyson, whose best performance up to that point was clearly his 91-seconds knockout over Michael Spinks.

Ali's two fights and victories over Sonny Liston is cleary what made Ali who he was during that time period btwn 64' and 67' and along with his other subsequent victories over the likes of Archie Moore, Henry Cooper and Floyd Patterson, just to name a few, he carries tons of momentum into a fight against a guy who one always had problems with disciplined tall opponents, always would get tired around the 5th or 6th round of a fight and least of all never went 15-rounds, something Ali did at least a few times during the 67' period before going into exile.

A great match on paper nonetheless, my pick is Ali by 15-round decision.

 

Heres the link to my thread
http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=267174

heres a copy/paste if u cant be arsed to read it

Thought i would post this interesting read from the Thomas Hauser book Muhammad Ali, His Life And Times.
Chapter: Burial, page 458

It talks about Alis opinion of Tyson as well as those of Teddy Atlas, Floyd Patterson, Bill Cayton, and Kevin Rooney, Jose Torres and Larry Holmes about how Ali Vs Tyson would pan out.

Interesting to see you guys thoughts.

Alis own heavyweight rankings place himself first, Jack Johnson second and Joe Louis in third place. Even before Mike Tysons shocking loss to James Buster Douglas, Ali said in private about Tyson, "He's predictable, the way he moves his head. He has fast hands, but hes slow on his feet and my hands were faster than his. The way to beat Tyson is with a fast jab, a hard right hand, and if he hits you, you have to be able to take a punch."


Larry Holmes, who fought Tyson when "Iron Mike" was at his peak, says, "Ali would have slapped Tyson all over the ring. Tyson hits hard but he's a bully, and Ali had a way of dealing with them. Can you imagine the things Ali would have said about Tyson before that fight? Hed have made Tyson so mad, Tyson would have been running into the ropes when they started the fight."

Holmes view of Alis ring supremacy is shared by Tysons early boxing family. Jose Torres and Floyd Patterson were guided to world titles by Tysons mento, Cus Damato. Bill Cayton served with Jim Jacobs as Tysons first co-managers. Kevin Rooney and Teddy Atlas worked with D'amato as Tysons trainers. When asked to match Ali in his prime against the best Tyson has been to date, all five said Ali would prevail.


Jose Torres
"You cant explain Ali in a conventional way because he consistently did the wrong thing in the ring. He didnt bend down, he didnt go to the body, he punched going backwards. He held his hands too low, he pulled straight back from punches. He didnt even throw combinations, he threw punches in flurries. And then he would win for two reasons - speed and magic.
Against Liston, Ali wanted to quit because of his eyes, but he got pushed out by Angelo Dundee and he wins. Its magic. Against Foreman he had no business to win, but he destroyed Foremans mind like a wizard. Its magic. If Ali at his best fought the best Mike Tyson, Mike would have more power, but there would be too much magic. Because of Cus, my heart would be with Tyson. But Ali would box Mike for 12 rounds, 15 rounds as many rounds as you want easily."

Floyd Patterson
"I dont want to say anything derogatory about anybody. All I know is, anybody who moves like Clay moved is going to give his opponent a lot of problems. Ive seen Tyson with guys who moved a bit, and he had difficulty, so imagine putting him in there with Clay. Mike can be hit with the left jab if you time it properly. I dont think he would have gotten by Clays left. And he wouldnt have knocked Clay out, because Clay took a very good punch and almost never got hit. Clay beats Tyson.

Bill Cayton
"I honestly believe that Mike Tyson at his best was the second greatest heavyweight of all time, but he wasnt Muhammad Ali. Mike is quick, but Ali was quicker. Mike had power but Ali had the greatest chin ever. And Mike unfortunately is prone to frustration, which would be his achilles heel against Ali, because Ali was the best fighter in history at playng mind games with his opponent. If Ali in his prime fought Mike at his best, i see Ali winning a decision;say eight rounds to four, or nine rounds to three."

Kevin Rooney
"Ali had that special belief in himself that allowed him to impose his will on other fighters. This is a guy who took on three of the toughest heavyweights in history, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier and George Foreman and beat them 5 out of 6 and when he fought Frazier and Foreman he wasnt even in his prime.
The young Ali would have frustrated Mike. I see Ali coming out, jabbing, moving talking alot. If Mike had me in his corner and his head was screwed on right, it would be close. Id advise Mike to keep his hands high, be elusive, slip, move in; whenever possible work the body. Lots of feints, because Ali was a terrific counterpuncher. Believe it or not, id work the jab even if it ws to Alis chest. It would have been an interesting fight, with both guys missing alot. But even with Mike at his best, id give the edge to Ali"

Teddy Atlas
"Ali at his best beats Tyson at his best. At his core, Ali is a much stronger, more stable person. Probably the way hed have fought Mike was to rely on what he did best: jab, score from the outside, stay off the ropes, show a lot of side to side movement, neutralize the pressure, make Mike pay when he missed, tie him up when he got inside. After a while, Mike would get anxious and he would be throwing one punch at a time. Then i think hed break down mentally, which is the area where Ali was the strongest. And when that happened, Ali would start putting punches together to punch Mike downhill even more. Finally when the time was right without it being too dangerous, Ali would give Mike a reason to fall. I think Ali would knock him out around the ninth or tenth round. But before that, Mike might get so discouraged and beaten mentally that hed quit the way Liston quit".

 

Overly simplistic IMO. It's the type of stuff Tyson fans like to advocate when they try to push the idea that Tyson's a heavy favorite against peak Ali. Stylistically Frazier is arguably worse for Ali, and Tyson is not better than Frazier at everything. As Eddie Futch illustrated, Tyson doesn't put on the same type of relentless pressure. He doesn't have fight at the same relentless speed of pressure. Yes, if he catches Ali good and downs him he could finish him. Certainly Tyson is more dangerous at a middle range. But Ali's not more vulnerable that range necessarily the way he was vulnerable against Frazier's unrelenting pace and in-fighting abilities.

I actually think Frazier might have had a higher stoppage percentage than Tyson did at his peak for this very reason. He didn't keep you in the game and allow you to hang in there. Tyson's got to win by knockout if he's going to win. Frazier didn't. That's one monumental difference between the two.

 

Uh, yeah.