what senior citizens???Hopkins who has won 2 titles since his fight with Joe??or Roy Jones who was only 2 years older then Joe?
Different circumstances. They had everything set up at home in the U.S. Joe had to leave Britain to gain global exposure, and to get the biggest fights out there. Roy and Hop never had to leave the U.S. when they were prime, fighting for the biggest promoters on HBO etc.
I can see where you might make that assessment but I was taking their careers as a whole, not just the Super Middleweights. To be honest though, if we were to talk about just the Super Middleweight division I think we could have thrown Ward/Dawson and Calzaghe/Hopkins into the equation anyway simply because of the similar circumstances involved in both fight. If Ward went on to be the dominant figure in the Light Heavyweight and to have success in the Cruiserweight and even Heavyweight divisions then I would consider him a superior fighter to Calzaghe period. That wouldn't be up for debate. The only asside would be, as you said, the Super Middleweights in which the case could be made that Calzaghe would still be in with a shot of beating Ward since, to date, Ward has fought no one in that division who is as good as Calzaghe was. So if Ward accomplished those feats I'd have no hesitation in saying he was better and likely to win against Joe prime against prime but that it would not be an easy task because, as we both agree, Calzaghe was better than his resume would suggest. I think this is a conundrum. Certainly I would say that Calzaghe would have to be rated amungst the greatest Super Middleweights of all time on his accomplishment - in which he is probably way out ahead of anyone else in the division's history - but the question then is accomplishments verses ability. I think it could be fair to say at the moment that Calzaghe is the most accomplished Super Middleweight of all time but that does not mean he was the best fighter to ever compete in that division, and that Roy Jones was probably the most talented fighter in the divisions history. When it comes to all time list then I think there should be two distinct versions of it. One would be overall all time great which takes into consideration a fighter accomplishments in every division he competes in and the other would divisional all time great in which a fighters accomplishments in a single division is judged against others in that division. In the case of Calzaghe vs. Jones for instance, Calzaghe would rate higher divisionally but Jones would rank higher overall because while Calzaghe accomplished the most in the Super Middleweights Jones achieved success in many divisions. Head to head hypothetical stand alone fights is another matter entire where a fighters abilities solely are taken into consideration instead of their accomplishments, and in that subject I would pick Jones to win. Again, it wouldn't be as easy as some seem to think it would be but Prime-Jones I think would prove to be too much for Prime-Calzaghe. It would have to be overall because I was taking the Hopkins, Jones and Dawson fights into consideration when I wrote that. I think beating Kessler or Froch again would give Ward one more win over a world-level opponent than Calzaghe has on his resume and so would just edge it in his favour. Right now...I'd still have to go with Calzaghe. It'd be a close call but I think Calzaghe would win by out-working Ward in the second half of the fight.
Roy was 3 years older, he'd had more fights, and he'd gone up and down in weight putting more miles on the clock. He hadn't won at elite level for 5 years. People age differently. There's age and ring age, 3 years might not seem that significant, but Roy was a much older FIGHTER.
Joe did go america late but the big boys didn't want him before Cos he wasn't a name.Only lacy and Kessler wins gave him the marketability.I'm a Joe fan,great boxer but fighter of the decade award was undeserved.one of the best exhibitions of boxing is calzaghe v lacy even if his style was suited to him or not.he was majestic,a masterclass and an example to Young boxers about The art of boxing.fighter of the decade award however does him a disservice,cos it gets people attacking his record
I dont like calzaghe,his style,decisions and stuff like that,but i certainly dont hate him,i respect him as every other fighter who climbed into the ring. I love kovalev,martinez and golovking though.
When a fighter comes out and says he doesn't want tough fights then you have problems. Plus Calzaghe fans are generally your lowlife Sun reading types who get their boxing knowledge from Frank W articles in that vile rag.
MAJR, Thanks for the reply, I hope you've had a good weekend. Fair enough mate, no problem. Only time will tell. I think Andre will move up to 175 soon, and I think he'll do great. I've heard him mention fighting at heavy one day, but we'll have to see. Yes I agree that Joe was definitely better than his resume would suggest. I've no problem with anyone saying that Joe was the number 1 based on what he did at the weight. But the168 division that he fought in from 98-2006, was very weak in my honest opinion, considering how good Joe was. I also think that he was a little fortunate that guys like Roy just passed through. I agree. You also have to note that Sugar Ray fought there too, as well as the Hitman, although they both obviously past their bests at that point, especially Ray. I agree entirely. I respect your opinion. I think Roy at his absolute peak would have a pretty easy time against Joe. Joe had a lot of gifts, but he didn't have a great defence, and I think Roy would have found him at will, even though he was a great southpaw. Fair enough. There's a few on here that agree with you. I've noticed that since being a member on here, Joe's abilities have been both vastly overated and underrated. As you know, I have criticised him many times for things he's said etc, but he was a great fighter. I agree that due to styles, it could have been a very close fight. Although I do criticise Joe, I do feel for him a little, that he fought inbetween two really good era's of the 168 division. He just missed the great Eubank-Benn era (obviously he fought Eubank) and then he retired just before this great era with Ward-Froch etc. I think he should have moved to 175 much sooner than he did, but again, it's a shame that he wasn't in the mix with those guys.
A lot of ppl only started paying attention to him after the Hopkins win so they really dont know **** about him
He's clearly the most OVER-rated fighter on ESB. His minions cause the backlash against him. He didn't want tough fights. He didn't take tough fights. He doesn't deserve a ton of respect.