Why Are There No Good Heavyweight Inside Fighters Anymore?

Notice how I said a couple of years .

I think he could take Wlad down as an old man, and then I think he could reign. I think he's improving with every fight, I really like what I see from him.

This Usyk, you speak of? PM me some videos, you are an excellent judge of talent, and I trust your opinion, but would like to see some of what you've liked to judge for myself.

 

If Volodymyr is still around in 2 or 3 years and his hand and footspeed noticably drop off then it could make for some interesting and more competitive fights but i don't see that happening anytime soon. The frustrating thing with Pulev is he seems to fight down to the level of his opposition and only do enough to win rounds even when he's capable of outclassing them. Im really looking forward to seeing him in there against a top 5 HW who can push him so we can see him operate at 100%.

It was just a joke in reference to the video i did show you, of Usyk, who you already saw and commented on. He's the guy in my AV pic too actually

This guy

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Yeah, he needs some work. I like what I see, though. Good jab, can move, fights positively. How old?

 

The heavyweight division sorely need a Jorge Paez. That kind of attitude would be awesome.

He'd get dropped in two rounds by the divisions Oscar, but man, he'd be fun.

 

I think it's important here not to generalise too much to include all "super heavyweights". Outside of the Klits, none of the large men provide the same sort of almost insolvable riddle to smaller fighters as those two do. Helenius was outboxed by Chisora (Tyson, at times, as well), Dimitrenko was outboxed by Chambers, Price (at this stage) would be vulnerable to anyone who could bang with him on the inside. Even Vitali, with his declining footspeed and power, is starting to show a lot more holes as well. It's Wlad, with his jab and ******* clinch, that's the real problem. It's simply nigh on impossible to do anything to him that can set things up, he's too dominant. As for inside work, forget it.

An infighter's always going to have to pay some price to get to his man, but against Wlad there's no payoff at the end of it. Get past the jab and you're tied up till the ref breaks you. We saw the difference with Brewster, a guy who's as game as they come. It wasn't so much the punishment that got to him in the rematch (I suspect), but the fact that he just couldn't get anything done. You could see how negative he looked in between rounds. He was being sapped mentally. That's a pattern against most Wlad opponents.

Take him out of the equation though and you've got a different situation. Just as a true world class giant killer is rare, so is a true world class giant. None of the new crop of "super heavies" have shown me anywhere near the same sort of qualities that make Wlad so hard to beat. Price came nearest, but as we saw, he needs a lot of work, and might perhaps never have the chin to truly dominate in the same way. Tyson is almost as eager to fight on the inside as Bowe, and Helenius has feet made of concrete. Pulev (if you want to lump him in with the giants) shows some potential, but his style thus far has struck me as rather limited.

I'm going to side with janitor here in that I still think infighting's a very viable option for the modern smaller heavyweight, but only on the caveat that Wlad's out of the picture. And if I do then I have to agree that most of the infighters today are lacking in the skills or ring nous of their forebears. They're all either upright sluggers like Charr and Arreola or sub-Frazier clones like Peter and Chisora. No real ability or understanding of how to cut off the ring, break down their man, feint, set traps and so on. Povetkin and Chambers (and Solis I suppose) are really about the only world class operators that I can see. It's just a shame they lack the power of the other men.

Jennings might have some potential but I'm not entirely convinced yet.

 

A perfectly respectable post, and I agree with you on most of it.

Wlad is special. So is his brother. When they are gone, heavyweight will indeed look different again.

 

Didn't you say on another forum the likes of Tua,Holyfield,Foreman,Lewis would play with Wladimir?? You've done a complete 360,you change your mind in the last few months ?????

 

I don't go on other forums, sir.

Keeping track of passwords is killer.

Though, I must say, while play is an incredibly strong word, I think Lewis definitely beats Wlad, Foreman probably does too(Middle rounds KO for both, Lewis to good, Foreman to aggressive and powerful), and Holyfield has the right attitude to cause him some problems. Tua, obviously, super dangerous.

So, it may in fact be my opinion that those guys could take Wlad. But play with, I don't think so. And that doesn't mean that we have no good fighters around today. I resent the statement that world title challengers, men who have boxed for decades with amateur and professional accolades, aren't any good. Argue that they aren't legendary, sure, that is a worthy discussion. Arguing they aren't good exposes you as a charlatan, who has no appreciation for the sweet science or how nuanced and difficult it is to be a professional athlete. If they aren't any good, and some people on this site box, that means that those people are disgraces to the sweet science who should hang their gloves in shame at the sheer, astounding ineptitude they possess in the sport. Of course, we are, and should be, on a much more generous scale.

A top-level fighter is a top level fighter. He is, by very definition, a successful and talented operator with a considerable deal of skill. If he wasn't, he wouldn't be a top level fighter.

I have been exposed to many of these fighters. I've seen them work personally, I've been to hundreds of fights live, I know my way around the Garden like it's the back of my hand. These are GOOD fighters.

That was the point I've been making.

 

I was recently rewatching Povetkin vs Chagaev, and was surprised to note just how effective Povetkin was on the inside. Very crisp, compact hooks and uppercuts, changing angles, varied rhythm, lots of good stuff. He may not be a legend of the ring but he certainly qualifies as a good infighter.

It's a shame he doesn't feel confident enough to take on a more consistently high level of competition.

 

I feel like this is fair and reasonable. We acknowledge Povetkin for the highly skilled champion he is, while fairly noting that he is not a legend or a transcending great.

That's all I ask. It's respectful and reasonable. It makes me truly uncomfortable when we refer to world-ranked fighters as no good. It spits on a profession I love, and a whole mess load of hard work and sacrifice.

That is all I'm trying to communicate.

 

My reasoning exactly. We are in 100% agreement.

Lennox has all the skills, AND the strength, AND the size, AND that angry, brutish attitude when he's challenged. It's a fairly even fight at range, but inside, their approaches differ entirely.

Wlad seeks to hold, or to IMMEDIATELY get distance through shoving or jabbing. He seeks to manhandle, to restrain, to wear.

Lennox seeks to work, seeks to land damaging uppercuts, seeks to WIN the clinch so he can hit the other guy.

When Wlad is trying to stop the fighting, Lennox would BE fighting, and he has the physical assets to resist Wlad's attempts to shut that down.

That's the edge Lennox needs. He wins that fight, probably with a big uppercut, Grant style.

 

hmm..

There is no doubt Wlad is a top fighter.

First of all there are many serious opponents out there for Wlad in no other history of the sport as there been a apparent "dominate" HW champion yet there be so many serious opponents out there for him and he chooses the likes of Wach,Mormek,Pianeta etc he is choosing a easy path depsite him being at the top.

The skill level has diminished and with that the thinking man has gone out of the game. It was Emmanuel Steward who said "Boxing needs to go back to the basics" and with that he took Wladimir and made him who he is. Good fighters? Yes but Chisora,Fury,Mitchel and rest would be sparring parnters in other eras.

The HW fighters have no sweet science they take so many shots where is the science?

If you want to argue whether these guys are good ake a new thread and I will post

 

I'd try not to worry about it. Fighters are either bums or ATGs according to those types. There's no capacity for middle ground.

When a poster refers to an amateur standout and former major title holder as a bum, I know not to pay too much attention.

 

I was responding to a comment in THIS thread. No need to make another thread.

Joe Louis ate tons of punches. I think fighter's getting hit is not really a fair reason to state that they aren't scientific or sound.

Who is a great challenger Wlad isn't facing? Byrd, Peter twice, Brewster, Ibragimov, Chagaev, Chambers, he can't get Povetkin to sign on the dotted line, Haye...That's a whole slew of champions and contenders. I don't think you have a good argument that there is a deserving guy out there who hasn't suffered a recent setback of significance that isn't also booked.

Price just went down, Chisora was beaten by Vitali and then DESTROYED by a guy Wlad beat decisively in Haye. Fury is booked with Cunningham and has no top shelf wins. Mitchell was just destroyed in one-sided fashion by Banks.
Arreola and Stiverne have been booked for awhile. Adamek has already been thrashed by Vitali and has arguably been schooled twice in his last two fights by Chambers and Cunningham.

Who else? Wlad is taking the only undefeated guys left with resumes right now, waiting for a challenger like Pulev to clear up his dance card. It's happened in every meaningful title reign that was extended.

I'm legitimately curious. Who is Wlad not fighting right now that deserves to be in there oh so much more than Pianeta, who is also totally free to be booked?

 

I'm not feeling great and I'm completely exhausted, yet unable to sleep. It's probably making my skin WAY thinner than it needs to be today.

My apologies. Back to the topic.