Prime Joe Calzaghe vs Prime Andre Ward @ 168

Ward is a slicker version of Bika


And the last one I won't even respond too .:huh

 

That was just mean. Why do you feel so insecure? This is a boxing forum, and you're bringing up lame insults from the past? Why, couldn't think of your own? I'm not impressed; you seem pathetic.

 

Quite true

 

The only person Calzaghe ever "Lacy'd" was Jeff Lacy. Calzaghe beats Froch, I agree, but it would be competitive and Froch would have his moments. But then I remember Calzaghe fans thinking that Joe would "Lacy" Bernard Hopkins, after all, how could a 43-year-old middleweight, who had already lost twice to Jermain Taylor and hadn't stopped anyone in years, trouble Superman

 

:rofl it was calzaghe who moved up in weight for that fight Hopkins had been there for years....delusional!

 

Hopkins had been at 175 for just under 2 years, before he fought Joe.

Also Joe had no problem at all fighting at 175. He had to starve himself to make 168 for his last few fights at SMW. His camps for Hopkins and Roy, were two of the best camps he'd had in his career.

 

It was Hopkins second fight at the weight.

Edit: Well third if you count his pro debut.

 

Bailey,

I love these debates ha!

You would make the worlds greatest lawyer!

Do you argue all the time with your partner?

In your opinion, have you ever been wrong, or lost an argument?

I love it when you use the word pawned.

Back on topic, I'm saying it doesn't make any difference, because you can spin any stats to suit your argument. You can list all Sven Ottke's stats if you want, it doesn't make him a great fighter. I judge fighters by their skills, not what it says in black and white in a magazine or on a website.

Again more stats. 11 top 10 fighters? So what? It doesn't mean they were great wins, over great fighters, it just means they were top 10 fighters in that weight class.

You're obsessed with stats and undefeated records.

You can have a fighter who fights in a really strong division, who fights everyone and loses a few, and you can have a fighter in a terribly weak division that goes undefeated.

In your eyes, the fighter that's unbeaten, is automatically seen as the better guy.

You never allow for circumstances.

Here you are again with stats and pedigrees etc.

So what if Carl hadn't beaten a champ who was top ten? What does that mean? Did he have the opportunity?

Are you going to tell me that Andre Ward's not as good as Ottke was, because Ottke was 34-0, and Andre is 26-0?

Do you think the 168 division in 1998 was particularly strong?

You are the king of stats. :good

Why has Ottke got a better resume than anyone in today's top ten?

Why has he got a better resume than Ward? Because he's won more fights?

Ward has beaten Froch and Kessler pretty comfortably.

What very good-great fighters did super Sven beat?

Who did Reid beat? Nardiello and Wharton? Who else?

Frankie Liles was just about done in 1998. He only had one fight that year, and then he only had two more fights, losing in both of them, before calling it a day.

 

Part 2.

Do you think early in 2004, when Joe made various comments about wanting to move up to 175, he knew that Lacy and Kessler were going to be big fights for him 2 to 3 years down the line? Was Joe a psychic southpaw?

He couldn't have fought any 175 fighter to get a foot in the door?

Are you going try and forget that Frank had him fight Manfredo from The Contender, to give him U.S. exposure three years later in 2007? He had to absolutely kill himself to make weight for that fight.

If he'd have gone to the U.S. earlier and impressed, he wouldn't have needed to have that joke of a fight. It was embarrassing. Joe didn't want it, and rightly so, but Frank made him go through with it, because he needed the exposure.

The fight with Roy wasn't relevant. You've read the quote from yesterday saying that Roy wasn't all that anymore, and that was 4 years earlier in 2004. Then you have comments from his autobiography, and the comments from early 2008 in a Setanta Sports interview. It doesn't matter if he pulled out, then rescheduled. The fight should never have took place anyway.

Based on the fact that he tried pulling out of the Lacy fight at the last minute. What do you mean Lacy looked more convincing? You mean more exciting, because of the knockouts? Ward would be a much bigger threat, because he's clearly a better boxer than Lacy. Bute didn't enter the super six, Ward was entitled to a break after winning the tournament, and I suspect he was letting the fight with Bute build up.

How many OPPORTUNITIES has Ward had to beat a top undefeated SMW? One in Bute, who again didn't enter the Super Six.

Ward has nothing to do with this discussion. He's not relevant. We're discussing Joe. Joe was struggling to make 168, and he was losing motivation.

He could have moved up to 175 whenever he'd have wanted to, to try and fight bigger names for bigger money.

Again, he could have moved up regardless, and fought anyone he could to gain U.S. exposure. Once again, he never wanted to do any groundwork, and that's why he was made to fight Manfredo. If he'd have gone up and impressed, he could have maybe fought Tarver at some point, and Hopkins and Roy earlier.

My personal opinion is, if Carl hadn't have thrown a huge spanner in he works by knocking him out, I think Ward would have fought him by now. Again, Bute didn't enter the tournament, and Ward had every right to take a break, and have a rest and an easy fight or two. You also have to remember the fact, that he was injured for a while too. I think he intended to have a break and let it build up. I think he would have fought him. I Certainly don't think that he ducked him.

He also said he was unmotivated, and was finding it hard to make weight. Again, he could have had a few fights and moved up the rankings, until a big fight opportunity came up.

It doesn't matter what Roy said. What was he going to say? We know what Joe said, and we knew what stage Roy was at in his career.

Maybe if Joe had moved up to Roy's weight class and fought in America, and impressed the networks and the fans, maybe a fight with Roy would have been realistic. The Kessler fight wasn't a big fight outside of Europe. The U.S. fans had hardly seen both fighters.

Coming to Europe is an option for Ward, but he doesn't NEED to come, because he's already beaten Kessler and Froch comfortably. He's already established himself as one of the best fighters in the world. Joe's circumstances were different. As good as he was, he was relatively unknown outside of Europe. He needed U.S. exposure to gain the big fights that he supposedly craved. In the end they came, but not until the last 2 years of his career, when he was in his mid 30's. But he could also have had big fights earlier in his career, if he'd have pushed harder for them. The opportunity was always there to move up to 175, and go to America. But he never took it. Lou De Bella offered him the opportunity in 1999, and you've seen quotes from that year, where Joe said he wasn't looking for tough fights. You've also seen a Frank W quote that I posted two days ago, which states that Joe wasn't bothered about going to America earlier in his career. So the opportunities were there, but he chose to ignore them.

He had a good career, but it could have been better. He fought in a weak division, where it took him 10 years to unify, and then he scraped past Hopkins and then beat Roy who'd been destroyed years earlier, who was nearly 40, and who he'd dismissed on 3 occasions. His ambition didn't match his skills.

 

whereabouts in britain do you live?

 

Ward is very good, but not in prime Calzaghe's league. Calzaghe on points

 

herein lies the problem, david

brits get very defensive about calzaghe fast - a very good fighter who fought a lot of dregs and never came to the US to face the best fighters of his era (like amir khan and hatton did)

building up someone like that, compared to ward - who will already be remembered while calzaghe won't internationally - doesn't hold true

 

Hopkins refused the 2002 confrontation, and a record payday. Fact.

Deal with it.

When 2008 came along, he got his ass tapped in his own backyard. He had to fake an injury to get an addition 5 mins of rest. :hi:

 

If ward beat Hopkins today that would be wards biggest win and he would be 5 years after calzaghe beat a much better version of him. I think bhop was either 3 or 4 p4p when joe beat him.

 

It would be quite a messy fight imo,a difficult fight to judge,several head clashes due to styles and stances,I would lean slightly towards ward im a close decision,either way though tbf if they were to fight 3 times I doubt there'd be the same outcome