Very good or great? Volume 10: Jersey Joe Walcott

He fought 3 great great champions and if they were 12 rounders he may have broken even with Louis and Marciano, hard to say he had the dramatic win against Charles...skill set was great, had some great fights and many feel he deserved the 1st Louis fight and had Louis down 3x in 2 fights and Marciano down once....he played with the 6'6 Hein ten Hoff and had lots of fun.....around any decade in the last 40 years his skill set would shine and I can not tell how many upsets he would pull...pinpoint power in both hands and the best set of legs after a young Ali ...I would say great- or very good + so I checked the great button

 

:deal

 

I remember no beating that took place... Although, you intentionally trying to mislead others to make look bad was exposed. I digress, at least I've help you in following basic premises and follow things to their logical conclusion. We all do have our favorites as McGrain... just as you have yours. I'm still waiting on how much credit you give Walcott for fight no. 1 if any?

 

It doesn't matter whether you think they got it wrong.. the problem is basic reading comprehension and critical thinking. You keep saying going by the judges cards it's a draw, as if that is what I want to go by or what we should go by. That has been my whole argument and MANY others THEN AND NOW disagree STRONGLY with the validity of those cards. So why then would I decide to use them when giving Walcott an additional 2 points? That makes no logical sense. I wouldn't, as I've always questioned said cards. Pretty simple really, McGrain got it, hopefully you do now as well.

 

Let me ask you this BIg Flea... how much great do you give Walcott for Louis 1... Do you just view it as a Louis win and nothing more and thus not much if any credit is given to Walcott. Do you give him the credit of say... it was probably an even fight and probably Louis toughest test at or near his prime... I've heard some people say they would've voted great had he gotten the decision over Louis.. which is odd... considering he very well could've. So how much credit if any do you give that fight buddy?

 

So what constitutes an ATG heavyweight? top 15 guys? top 20 guys?

I'd say a top #15 for an ATG heavyweight great is fair.

 

So you want me to use criteria that wasn't used to widen the score on cards that weren't official for a fight I can't see?

Why would I do that?

I find it easier to accept it was a close fight as verified by all but one submitted card, they had a rematch to clairfy matters and Louis stopped him. Simple really mate.

 

Ori,

Charles was 29 years old in 1951 and the reigning heavyweight champion of the world who had not lost in 4 years..he was absolutely near his prime when Walcott knocked him out.

 

Not a quantifiable amount for me. Many things can make a fighter great. An all time great is someone who would be great in any era for me.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTmNZZXLMng

Walcott fighting an undefeated giant

 

That's impossible to tell for sure based on that IMO (it's why they fight the fights) you always have to go with resume dashed with a bit of H2H....

So because Walcott had a great hook, and movement....he's great by your standards?

 

He had plenty more than just that

 

he is great because he had to overcome such a gauntlet to get that title shot vs Louis and he so nearly became champion of the world, despite losing a close fight he got his shot and was dispatched in the rematch, he could have given up then but he didn't. He kept going and despite losing twice to the younger fitter Charles he still didn't give up and when got his 5th shot he scored one of the best knockouts of all time to secure the championship. He wasn't a great champion and you might well argue he isn't particularly a great heavyweight, but he is a great fighter and through recorded history there aren't many cruiserweights I'd favour to beat him. Rocky, Langford and Tunney sit above him in my cruiser rankings (I rank holy at heavy). But given the skillset of jersey, the names he defeated and the pass I give him for his early career, I am happy classing him a great. not sure how he's gonna fare between Louis and Holmes in terms of reaching greatness so I'm not sure I'd call him an atg.

 

As an aside, I'll use a mix of resume, achievement and skillset to determine if someone is a great but I rank purely on h2h in the division I feel they'd compete in at their best.

 

Paragraphs brother!

That's fair enough though, just disagree :good