Why Are There No Good Heavyweight Inside Fighters Anymore?

I thought Lewis-Klitschko was just as good a war while it lasted. Klitschko-Sanders, Adamek-Arreola I really enjoyed.

Heavyweight wars are rare, I agree with you, but we get a couple a year. Mike Mollo just got poleaxed in a barnburner alittle while ago.

 

Excitement wise, probably, but the quality of exchanges in those fights didn't come close to Holy Bowe. That's what made that fight, and that exchange in particular, so scintillating.

The closest I can think of in the last ten years was probably Vit Sanders, though it was a degree or two sloppier on Sanders part.

 

I wish.. What was the last GREAT heavyweight fight?

 

Povetkin Huck probably. Depends how you define great.

 

Liakhovich vs Brewster

 

I was thinking this. Fights like this used to happen all the time back in the 70s/90s.

 

That's why those two eras are considered the best of all time. The 90s especially seemed to have a war like that every other month.

 

BTW, if you get a chance, check out some of the British domestic fights of the last few years. Quite a lot of high drama there, though not quite the upper echelon of skill.

 

oh yeah, I've seen them on prizefighter.. good fights, no doubt about it. I have no answer as to why the inside skill declined like that in the heavyweights.

 

Well, there's been a decline in skill in all facets of the heavyweight division outside the Klitschkos and the odd technician like Chambers. Why that is could be due to anything, but it's most likely a combination of things. Lack of world class trainers, lack of dedication among contenders, lack of fire to be the best, rise of the big men (more outside fighting), general inactivity and lack of competitive matchups by timid promotors terrified of losing their fighter's 0 and marketability, lack of athletic specimens in general who could more easily pick up the skills they were taught and apply them in the ring. Fighters giving more of a **** would be a good start to improving things.

 

The biggest skill deficiency in the HW division lies WITH the Klitchkos...Wlad wins his fights because he's big, awkward and throws a big punch... ..If you think he's winning fights due to his technical proficiency and boxing skill, you dont know what you're watching....Povektin, Haye, Pulev, Fury..are all far more skilled boxers.

 

How much do you think his bigger size matters, Dino?

 

My suspicion is that it ended with Eddie Futch.

Why no good heavyweight inside fighters? Well, at the top level, the championship is the objective, and preparation for competing in that situation. Infighting commonly entails accumulative bodywork, much less of an asset over the 12 round limit than the former 15 round distances.

All right. Who do you think of, among pure heavyweights who were great infighters over the last 50 years? I think of Joe Frazier [who was strictly a heavyweight throughout his amateur as well as professional career], and Riddick Bowe. Who coached both in the art of infighting? Eddie Futch , perhaps the final great trainer to apply a premium on this tactic from the 15 round era. [Norton, another Futch pupil, was also noted for his infighting proficiency.] Through the late Futch, Bowe appears to be the final gasp of a now bygone era.

I don't expect a return to an emphasis on infighting in the heavyweight ranks at the top level without a restoration of time limits longer than 12 rounds, and with it, a renewed focus on infighting scrutiny among judges providing the scoring. Amateur boxing doesn't promote it so much because the three round limit is not long enough for this work to pay off with a cumulative effect. Therefore the premium is on eye catching scoring blows.

For whatever it's worth, Louis did not consider himself an infighter ["I didn't like to be crowded," although he did fairly well at it in the Godoy rematch], Charles survived his first match with Marciano by smothering away his punching room [which Rocky admitted he didn't like], as did Tommy Gibbons in going the distance with Dempsey.

Despite being a physical mismatch, Jack Johnson vs Tommy Burns featured two of the finest HW champs ever at infighting. For as long as it lasted, Frazier-JQ I was another fine example on display. [For Jerry even to win the first round on the inside as he did against who I consider the best infighting champion ever, at that champion's peak, in the trenches, is astounding. It might be the greatest single complete round of heavyweight infighting ever recorded on display at the championship level, and for three minutes, Joe actually got out hooked, as Jerry unloaded 54 of them, 20 to Frazier's body, while Joe himself released 64 total shots of return fire.]

Jerry Quarry deserves to be looked at more closely as a great infighter. A short puncher with quick hands, he could be all out to sea against a tall, long range specialist like Ali, but I don't believe I've seen another orthodox heavyweight who could double up the right to the body and head, and make it look as good as he did.

Relatively few filmed heavyweights over the whole span of the Queensberry era were truly great infighters, and it might be worthwhile to evaluate who the very best were, and why, while considering this thread question, looking at Jack Johnson ripping right uppercuts through in the clinches, or Frazier outlasting and causing a young Jerry Quarry to largely gas after a mere two rounds in the trenches. [Also look at how Joe survived the majority of round two in the first Bonavena match, not by running, hugging or reclining against the ropes, but simply by obtaining sanctuary inside.]

 

Another nice post, Anubis.

A couple points to consider...

Referees seem to have become much quicker to break fighters in all divisions rather than let the combatants work their ways out... And tolerate more holding without issuing warnings.

You rightly point to Johnson as a great infighter and to suggest that Burns was just behind him. There is definitely a clue here. Filmed footage of that era, such as it remains, shows trap setters, one-shot guys and frankly heavies who were not very skilled by modern standards. Winging wide shots off balance, ludicrous footwork, a lot of haphazard action. Sometimes the actual delivering of the punch seems a mere formality necessary to begin the mauling of the inside stuff. Perhaps a leftover from the London Prize Rules time.

Bowe's inside work, tho certainly flashy and ineffective, also cost him dearly in return action. The frequency of this was a bit unnecessary for the 6 foot 5 inch guy with an 81 inch reach and a quick, accurate jab. Inside work for the larger fighter doesn't seem to precipitate longevity.

 

And as I read that, I hear Arthur Mercante, Sr. in my mind's ear constantly admonishing fighters in close quarters to, "Work your way out of it, fight yourselves out of it!," and only break them reluctantly.

Fumbling along tentatively here, I suspect it's correct that LPR punching attempts were primarily made to set up the grinding process of mauling, and that solid punching to the head was a relative rarity, the body being a softer target for the fist [a portion of the anatomy not made for striking hard surfaces]. Here's where we make note of the fact that the HW Title rarely changed hands on time limit decisions then. Jeffries-Corbett I in 1900 reportedly came very close until Jeff pulled it out in the 23rd. Burns dethroned Hart over 20. But Tunney W 10 Dempsey in 1926 signaled a sea change. Gene's style of boxing integrated the novel allowance. Prior to that ten rounder, it was most usually necessary to force a stoppage to gain the crown [typically with a wearing process over the long haul] then merely avoid being stopped in order to retain that title. Tunney-Dempsey I, Sharkey-Schmeling II and Braddock-Baer altered this principle idea considerably within a ten year span, something which had to be tremendously jarring to traditionalists of the time. Dempsey-Willard changed how the title could pass on, quickly, in a sensationally abrupt ambush, then Tunney-Dempsey I did it again, over ten rounds with three men casting votes. Modern HW boxing is often traced to these events.

I think his proficiency on the inside may have undermined his physical conditioning as he became increasingly dependent on trench warfare. Keeping him at a weight closer to 225, then infighting becomes a uniquely serviceable contingency deterrent [and maybe a crucial advantage against somebody not known for his infighting, like Lennox]. I suppose it can be suggested infighting became a crutch for him, a substitute for quality conditioning, like the rope-a-dope had become for Ali after Foreman, and he paid a far more abrupt price for that, taking a lot more shots to the head than I think Ali did.