Archie Moore versus Wladimir Klitschko's opposition

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, May 3, 2013.


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  1. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    So, Lewis' fight versus Vitali outweighs his combined results versus Ruddock, Bruno, Tua, Grant, Briggs, Golota, Morrison, Tucker, Mercer and Holyfield? The Vitali result was the pivotal effort that put Lewis over the top for you.

    Then what of a fighter like Bowe who never really made it out of his 20's? What of Marciano who was done at 32?

    At Klit's current age, Ali was able to perform at the level he displayed versus Holmes, but in Wlad's case his legacy is on the line, I suppose.

    That's some balanced, even-handed analysis.
     
    Seamus, May 4, 2013
    Seamus, May 4, 2013
    #46
  2. vnyc

    vnyc Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    :deal
     
    vnyc, May 4, 2013
    vnyc, May 4, 2013
    #47
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol: no.

    "Over the top" of what? I think it's his best result if that's what you mean?

    I don't understand the question.

    Are you trying to say that because I consider Vitali, Wlad and Lewis near enough to prime at 37 to be fully appraised that I have to treat all fighters of that age with exactly the same attitude? Including those that have retired?

    ...I think if you try, really hard, you'll be able to understand that Wlad's apparent invulnerability to opposition offence in his second career is the cornerstone of his legacy.

    Make absolutely no mistake about it - Unforgiven is right. Even now, Wlad's legacy is not entirely in tact, due to its nature. I think most of the people who have responded in this thread understand what a first round KO against a journeyman would do to general perceptions of Wladimir.
     
    McGrain, May 4, 2013
    McGrain, May 4, 2013
    #48
  4. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    How bad would Wlad look if he had to fight that version of Holmes? Lucky for Wlad he's only fighting journeymen so who's to know...But i'd be confidant that prime Holmes would put Wlad in a pine box.
     
    dinovelvet, May 4, 2013
    dinovelvet, May 4, 2013
    #49
  5. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I still think regardless of anything, a 7 year stint at the top is enough for me to call a fighter "great"
     
    lufcrazy, May 4, 2013
    lufcrazy, May 4, 2013
    #50
  6. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    Is Ottke in your ATG list as well?
     
    dinovelvet, May 4, 2013
    dinovelvet, May 4, 2013
    #51
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    There are arguments raging in the top 100 thread over fighters who went unbeaten in possession of a title for longer, but who remain underwhelming to some because then never took out the #1 or #2 of their time - exactly like Wladimir.

    Of course, the problem being that his brother is the other guy is likely to spare him the worst of these attentions, but still.
     
    McGrain, May 4, 2013
    McGrain, May 4, 2013
    #52
  8. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Who was Vitali at the time? In fact, who is Vitali now? More potential than results. Compared to Holyfield, or even Tua, he isn't much in the results ledger. He's more along the lines of a Michael Grant... all potential.



    Some fighters are more durable over the years and that should be rewarded in their appraisal. Marciano's body was broken down by a succession of wars. Bowe, also. Ali could only take so much. Wlad has taken damage, learned to skillfully minimize it and continues at a high level. Not his prime, but a high level. However, like any aging fighter, the floor can fall from beneath at any moment. If that happens, it would not be such a great mark against him, rather just the inevitable for a fighter going on too long.

    Wlad's cornerstone of his second career is going 17-0 with 13 stoppages against a high level of competition. Results not style points are his legacy.
     
    Seamus, May 4, 2013
    Seamus, May 4, 2013
    #53
  9. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    The voice of objectivity regarding Waldo has spoken.
     
    Seamus, May 4, 2013
    Seamus, May 4, 2013
    #54
  10. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    No.
     
    lufcrazy, May 4, 2013
    lufcrazy, May 4, 2013
    #55
  11. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I put wlad's greatness on a per with Dempsey's. Both enjoyed a long reign and both failed to fight their long term outstanding contender.
     
    lufcrazy, May 4, 2013
    lufcrazy, May 4, 2013
    #56
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The heir to the title "#1 heavyweight in the world", making him the best possible opponent for Lewis's last fight.

    A faded version of the bet or second best heavyweight that has boxed in the last nine years.

    A ludicrous remark.

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    Careful study of the above videos will reveal for you the difference between the potential of Vitali Klitschko and the "potential" of Mike Grant.


    Yes, that's known as "longevity", it's generally considered quite highly.

    Clearly he has been better in his later years than in his early years, based upon his results. I find your obstinacy in failing to recognise what KO1 against a journeyman would do to his legacy...fascinating.



    Yes, and if that becomes 17-1 versus one of his weaker opponents during that key second career, his legacy will be impaired.
     
    McGrain, May 4, 2013
    McGrain, May 4, 2013
    #57
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it.
     
    McGrain, May 4, 2013
    McGrain, May 4, 2013
    #58
  14. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Actually, Vitali was a last minute replacement who against the best fighter he faced previously had wilted. His best win was probably over a faded never was in Larry Donald.

    When Grant faced Lewis, he had beaten Savarese, stopped Golota and racked up a slew of victories of solid second tier guys in Butler, Sullivan and Cole, the latter being more like the best that Vitali had beaten.

    So, ludicrous as you may think, Grant was viewed as much more of threat at the time he faced Lewis than Vitali, the replacement, was.


    Certainly it would have an effect. He's a borderline top 10 guy now. But it's not like he's going to fall into the 30's.

    Again, he is Ali's age when Ali fought Holmes. He has fought the same number of fights. He has been KD'd and KO'd, taken his share of damage. Yet, Wlad's entire legacy pivots on a fight when he is 37 but Ali's was totally unaffected. Gotcha.
     
    Seamus, May 4, 2013
    Seamus, May 4, 2013
    #59
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    So what?

    Answer me this: who do you think was a better fighter at the time they met Lennox Lewis - Vitali Klitschko or Mike Grant?




    His "borderline top 10" status is a matter for huge, huge debate next door now. What his getting KTFO by a journeyman at this stage of his career would do to him, God only knows. I wouldn't expect him to drop to the thirties, no, but I would expect the impact to be significant.

    Ali had Parkinson's syndorme when he fought Holmes. He was completely shot. The comparison is not a sensible one.

    Contrarily, when Ali ruled the world, Wlad was being KTFO by decent fighters.

    Dramatic, inaccurate.

    No you don't, not at all. You're determined that I'm saying more than I am, and desperate to convince yourself that i'm being harder on Wlad than I am. I have no idea why.


    If you want something more extreme to latch onto, I will say that insisting that any harsh judgement made against any thirty-seven year old Wladimir means exactly the same treatment needs to be dished out to a literally disabled Muhammad Ali is one of the stupidest things i've read on the forum this year.
     
    McGrain, May 4, 2013
    McGrain, May 4, 2013
    #60
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