when hell i said that we should ignore the victory of ali over foreman? in the 70s frazier did beat ali clearly in 1971 pre foreman,1974-75 frazier was clearly past his prime, norton did beat ali 2/3 fights(foreman said that norton won the 3 fights), jimmy young did beat ali,bonavena, quarry and lyle were contenders, never great fighters, this one is the only department where maybe you can see norton better than bowe.. evander holyfield was a great great fighter(still bowe did beat hm twice).. where is the fault here?
Your previous wording seems to dismiss it, or treat it almost like an aberration. And yet you've spent the whole thread hyping the fact that Norton was able to give Ali tough fights, and then saying Bowe could do better. So at some point one starts to wonder, why only obsess about Ali facing Norton, (especially when the styles of Bowe and Norton are very dissimilar) and then dismiss everything else he did? Why only talk about the Foreman fight when Ali was clearly showing other styles of fighting both in 74 itself and leading into the year? (And honestly, the whole rope-a-dope thing is overblown, contrary to the myth Ali didn't just lie against the ropes and wait for Foreman to collapse, he turned stationary counterpuncher and hurt Foreman in every single round.) IAnd if we're going to keep bringing every time that Ali had an issue with a very good or great fighter into the mix, how about every time Bowe had problems with often lesser quality fighters, like Tubbs, Golota, etc.? Ken Norton is a very good fighter, where is the fault in a great fighter having issues with a very good fighter, especially one who presents stylistic problems?
Bowe was at his best before 94 so he definitely stands a good chance to beat 74 Ali, but to say definitively one way or the other is too tough a call. I'd almost put it at even, either one wins on any given day. A pre-prison Clay beats any version of Bowe though.
norton never was in the league of bowe, and norton was good, not very good, i think that lyle would have destroyed him, norton built his fame based on the fights with a past prime version of ali, my point is that 70s ali was a very static version of ali, i am not saying that bowe would win 100% any day, i say that is very realistic a victory for bowe 92
To be fair, Ali was past it in both of those fights, and probably wasn't at his absolute best against norton.
So was Liston, so was Foreman. Your point being? Bowe was good, very good, but his porous defense would always be a problem agaiinst a sharpshooter like Ali.
hahah pathetic... you did cut the comment ... MY POINT WAS THAT HE WAS NOT JUST BIGGER,STRONGER AND HARDER PUNCHER BUT HE DID HAVE GOOD STAMINA and he did not tire himself like foreman did. and bowe was not good, he was great. the next time try to answer the real comment(if you can) not cutting and manipulating
Welcome to the site,Glover :good Answer me this - If a fat out of shape Tony Tubbs can confound Bowe with movement,then how do you think he'd have fared against the version of Ali that I've made the subject of this thread ?
StevieG Ali whooped Foreman's ass? As I said laying on the ropes praying for somebody else to get tired isn't whooping anybody. Ali had Foreman's number? How would anybody know that since they only fought once? That is like saying Buster Douglas had Mike Tyson's number and believing because it happened once it would happen again. Clearly Ali knew he was lucky and never fought Foreman again. People act like Ali couldn't lose when he lost. You act like Norton beat a over the hill Ali. 28 or 29 is washed up now? So how did Foreman fight to he was 48? Lennox was still great till his late 30s but Ali is done at 29 or so? Did Doug Jones not beat around a early 20s Ali? I guess he wasn't in his prime yet right? Ali could beat out boxed and if anything he was better doing his comeback up until his fight with Foreman. He was bigger and didn't keep his hands down quite as much as he did when he was younger. Anyway could Bowe beat him? Of course he could of and probably would of if he came into the bout in shape.
Wanderer Ali hurt Foreman in every single round? When did this happen? Wait because you want to believe Ali hurt Foreman in every single round? Even when Foreman was knocked down he didn't seem hurt he seemed tired. Hey but if it helps you sleep at nights to believe **** that never happenned then more power to you. Ali laid against the ropes and hoped Foreman got tired which is a bull**** plan to began with. Lucky Foreman's ego was so huge that he just kept swinging 1 wild punch after another.
Ah, so you've never actually watched the fight, huh? Just watched the Rumble in the Jungle movie and repeated the things you heard others say? I'll admit, I may have exaggerated slightly saying Ali hurt Foreman every round. More like every round in rounds 1-5. In all of those rounds Ali landed a punch or combination that visibly affected Foreman. Made a knee buckle, snapped George's head back, made Foreman take a backward step or 2 and have to regroup. [yt]ijOjRTqPICk[/yt] Round 1: Ali throws plenty of good shots, lands a 1-2 that makes Foreman's knee buckle slightly at 2:40. Foreman puts about 5 punches together well at 3:37. Sure is a good thing for Ali that Foreman never threw in combination in this fight. Round 2: Ali lands very good 1-2s at several points, most notably at 6:34. Ali dramatically snaps Foreman's head back with a 3 punch combination at 6:54. Foreman lands a lunging 1-2 at 4:46 and an uppercut inside afterwards when Ali tries to tie him up, as well as swinging at the body with hooks from both hands. Foreman tries a left right hook combo that's blocked at 5:10, and again throwing hooks to the body with both hands right afterward. 6:04, Foreman again goes to body with both hands in combination, and again just a few seconds later. Sure is a good thing for Ali that Foreman only went for one punch at a time and never threw in combination. Round 3: Ali lands a 1-2 at 7:30 that makes Foreman lean his whole upper body backwards. At 8:17 Ali scores with several hard 1-2s, and Foreman stands frozen for a second by the effects. Unfortunately not a great camera angle and the ref was in the way, otherwise it would be more apparent. At 10:14 Ali takes a big step back, plants his back foot for maximum power, then moves forward and drives a 3 punch combination into the face of Foreman that knocks George off balance. Fortunately, we know that Foreman wasn't hurt or affected at all, because Ali did nothing but lay on the ropes the whole fight and wait for Foreman to get tired. Ali follows up with a relatively light pair of 1-2s seconds afterward. 7:46, Foreman tries to hook to the body with both hands again, throwing 3 punches to the body then trying to come upstairs with a left hook. Shortly after the 8 minute mark Foreman tries another light combination to the belly. Foreman tries to land the 1-2 at 8:38. At 9:03 he shoots 6 punches in combination to Ali's stomach. Foreman puts 3 punches together, a right, straight left, and a right at 9:24. At 9:47 Foreman tries a big left hook-right hook combo to the face that Ali slips. Boy, isn't Ali lucky that Foreman never thought to throw any punches in combination? Round 4: Ali lands a 3 punch combination at 10:54, Foreman staggers back 2 steps. Feel free to tell me that George didn't feel that. At 12:03 a medium strength right hand knocks Foreman's head back. 12:53 a lead right by Ali knocks Foreman's whole body back and to the side. 11:16, Foreman throws a left hook to the body, right hook to the head combo. 12:18 Foreman throws a pair of hook to the body, left-right, followed by attempting a left hook to the head. 13:16 Foreman does a left hook to the body left hook to the head combo. He also tried a few slow 1-2s to the head that were minor enough that I didn't note the specific times. Goddamn is Ali lucky that Foreman didn't throw any combinations! Round 5: Ali lands one or two light punches early but covers up and conserves energy for most of the round. This round, more than any other, can actually be called a rope-a-dope round. Ali then cuts loose in the last 45 seconds or so, repeatedly hitting Foreman, first with light 1-2s starting at 15:47 and then a variety of good shots starting around 16:05. Foreman is staggered twice in the last 30 second of the round. Guess it was just the heat, which only Foreman could feel and Ali couldn't. Foreman starts the round by putting together 4 punches to the body. At 14:00 he pushes Ali back to the ropes with a jab then lands a right hook to the body. He does a virtual repeat of that at 14:03. 14:33 Foreman puts together 3 punches to the body. A second or two later he tries a lead right to the body, followed by two lefts and a right upstairs. 14:56 Foreman puts in several jabs followed by a big right hook. 15:00 he jabs Ali twice to the face, then lands a big right hook downstairs, followed by attempting another jab to the face, two big rights upstairs and a left hook to the head. 15:30 Foreman whales upstairs and downstairs with a whole series of left hooks, capped off by a right hook to the head. He follows that up by trying to do the several jabs followed by a right to the stomach again. Man, what if Foreman had ever tried to use a combination of punches in this fight? Can you imagine what would have happened?!! So yeah, long story short, my advice to you is to actually try watchign the fights rather than just relying on the myths or what everyone says happened. You might find all sorts of interesting things, like that Julio Cesar Chavez Sr wasn't just a take 3 to land 1 brawler, [yt]5SMYpid7jdI[/yt] that Goerge Foreman didn't beat Moorer with just one punch, he was landing good shots throughout and smacked Moorer from one side of the ring to the other through the last round, [yt]oRAvcuy4g-0[/yt] or that Mike Tyson could KO anyone with one punch, ro that Chavez lost every round agsinst Taylor, or... well, you get the idea.
Surely it can't be denied that Ali was still the best in the world up until,and including,Manilla. He was already 33.
