True enough, but we're talking about a prime Lennox Lewis here, not some 2 bit has-been chump. I'm simply saying that for as over-rated as i think Lewis is, Joe isn't gonna own him in the ring. Imo it'd be a war. Further, i think Lennox could very well beat him maybe 4 out of 10 times. I don't think that's an unreasonable assessment here. Geezus, i can't believe i'm defending Lennox Lewis LOL!
Sure you can find any exceptions to the rule but I'm talking averages. When fighters are that much bigger and well schooled to boot you're going to need a hell of a lot of pinpoint technique to even the playing fields. Oddjob freaks like Satterfield and Herbie Hide come along once in a blue moon, but they've never been a common thing. It may sound like I'm bigging him up to mitigate Lewis's loss, but it's my honest opinion that Rahman was a hugely concussive guy and one of the more underrated punchers of the last few years. He was also a heavy set, low to the ground fighter who threw his whole bodyweight into his shots, particularly the overhand right, and possessed enormous pure strength (verified). Whether Baer punched harder than him is something neither of us will ever be able to answer; power, after all, comes from many different sources. But if he did it wasn't by much, and besides a few sharp hooks in the early going he never caught Louis with anything like the same sort of shot. Like I said, only punch that springs to mind as being comparable is Shavers on Holmes, and that's frequently cited as one of the hardest shots ever. Rahman on Lewis doesn't have that rep, obviously, but I challenge you to find a cleaner punch from a heavy handed banger that didn't have a similar effect. [yt]IZtF5sYEKPw[/yt] Blame Lennox all you like for getting caught by that shot in the first place, but don't blame his chin for not taking it when it did. Then I would cite the leaping left hook that Tua landed on both Ruiz and Lewis. One started the downfall, the other was merely a highlight in an otherwise one-sided drubbing. The shots Mercer landed that failed to dent Lewis while knocking out Morrison (went the distance with Foreman). Vitali's two fisted attack that had already stopped ninety seven percent of his former victims, and would go on to stop the likes of Samuel Peter and Chris Arreola. Surviving onslaughts against Briggs and Bruno, shots from Ruddock and Mason, Tyson etc. They both took big shots in their day. I simply think Lewis took a lot more concussive stuff from a lot bigger breed of puncher. Yeah, more dangerous maybe, because of his greater skillset and counterpunching style. Harder hitting with single shots? Nowhere close. So essentially you're saying that Louis would have got up from the shot that Rahman would have landed on him in South Africa? I really can't see that at all. Louis had great recovery abilities, as I've already conceded, but he wasn't immune to getting put on the canvas and staying there.
Looks can sometimes be deceiving. Corrie Sanders was an excellent track and field athlete at school, but looked like an out of shape porn star throughout most of his professional career. Not sure I'd care to argue Samuel Peter's corner though.
@ janitor - There is no f-ing way that old-timer (pre-1960 for the most part) era champion athletes are gonna compare to modern era championship level athletes. It's not debatable, in fact it's not even close the vast majority of the time. Many modern athletes would make their old-time counterparts look like amateurs. Any World Series champs, Stanley Cup champs, NBA champs, Super-Bowl champs, Olympic champs, and virtually any other sport, would steam roll their respective pre-1960's counterparts. It would be embarrassing. Imagne Usain Bolt at the 1936 Olympics! He'd be considered superman! He'd make even Jesse Owens look like a second rate amateur. In fact most if not every sprinter from the 1930's would be hard pressed to even qualify for the Olympics today. 90% of the time, the modern era wins in h2h. It'd take an exceptional athlete from the old days to best a modern champion in pretty much any sport.
Lewis was an excellent athlete but I don't know how many modern advanced training methods he used. The only fighters who really seem to be into that jazz are the Klitschkos, and they have a thoroughly old school work ethic underpinning everything they do. Besides, they're only two guys. You seem to be applying it to all modern heavyweights, which would include guys like Solis, Arreola, Charr, Chisora and so on.
It's difficult to pinpoint specifics with regard to training, but imo "heart" and "chin" can play just as large a role in Boxing. This plays to the old-timers benefit since these are things that can't really be taught and tend to transcend time eras. The nature of Boxing is such that it has the ability to transcend time eras more-so than many other sports. I suspect the "one on one" aspect, as well as the combative nature of the sport both play a large part in this. However, even this unique quality/nature that boxing possesses cannot span the gulf of 60, 70, 80 years. Times change. Athletes just get better with time.
When Lewis faced Holyfield, Holyfield was the universally recognized undisputed HW champ. Prior to this fight, Holy TKoed Tyson 2X, and KOed Moorer. Golota maybe be a mental case but he did beat up Bowe 2X and was close to Koing Grant in the 1st round. Against Lewis, Golota couldn't do ****, Lewis totally obliterated him in just few seconds. Everybody int he boxing world at that time was like "WOW". Before Lewis toyed and laid the blueprint on how to beat Tua, Tua was like KOing everybody. That everybody includes the likes of Rahman, Maskaev, Ruiz, Izon, Suillivan, many of these becma eHW champ at one point in time. Tua's only official loss was against Ibeabuchi. I personally scored that fight for Tua. Lewis went on to beat every guy put infront of him, including past prime Tyson, Vitali, etc. Don't forget the rest of the good fighters he fought like Tucker, Ruddock, Morrison and Mercer. Lewis have been koed b lesser fighters because he was not focused on those 2 fights (out of 40+ fights) and he proved who was the superior fighter in the rematches. Lewis losing to Rahman and McCall because of complacency does not mean he will be complacent against Louis.
It is not only debatable, but you might just have to get used to the idea. As a starting point you might want to compare the curent top 10, to their earlier counterparts. Compare their training regimes, and even look at a photograph and compare their body fat percentage. Whatever advances there have been in athletics over the years, they are clearly not reflected in the curent heavyweight top 10.
If you compare resumes in terms of number of fights against name opponents of the era, he actualy stacks up well against most people. He has relativley few fights overall, bu8t virtualy no fat on his record.
What's to debate exactly? I'll concede that heart and chin transcend time eras. Work ethic? This has a lot to do with heart, and i'm willing to concede that work ethic depends on the individual. But let me provide a few more examples to illustrate the fact of my point: Imagine LeBron James or Michael Jordan playing pro basketball in the 40's and 50's. They'd put up more points than entire teams. Do you think the great Babe Ruth would hit even half as many HRs today? Barry Sanders would probably rush for 3000+ yard seasons on a regular basis back in the 30's, 40's, or 50's, maybe more even. Imagine the damage someone like Sidney Crosby, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, or Steve Yzerman would've did back in the 40's or 50's. Also, as i said earlier, many if not most Olympic athletes from before the 1950's would be hard pressed to even just qualify for the Olympics today. It isn't gonna be all that different when it comes to boxing either. Take a look at some old tapes of Louis or Dempsey, and you tell me honestly if you think they'd have a shot at a prime Tyson or Clay? No done nada! Imo they'd be lucky to make a top 3 HW after 1970. I'm not saying that it's absolutely impossible, but it'd be brutally difficult enough for ATGs, let alone run-of-the-mill fighters from their era. Modern era fighters in their primes like Roy Jones Jr, Floyd Mayweather Jr, Manny Pacquiao, Shane Mosely, etc would box circles around their 1920's and 30's counterparts for fun, they'd make them look like amateurs. I think we have a tendency to look at the old timer ATGs with rose coloured glasses. The fact of the matter is guys like Louis, Marciano, and Dempsey, for as great as they were during their time, wouldn't even qualify as legitimate heavyweights today, and if they did somehow manage to make weight, they definitely wouldn't be the force they were in their respective eras.
Who did Lennox ever really fight/beat that was great? If you wanna compare resumes, Joe Louis destroys Lennox Lewis.
Yes, but how many big guys did Louis fight with great or even good technique? Tony Galento? Max Baer? Abe Simon? Almost all the technical guys he fought were sub-200lbers, and that sort of size differential cannot be made up with technique, especially when the big guys aren't too shabby in that department either, as was the case with many of Lewis's opponents. He didn't manage to load up and slam a perfect overhand right straight into Louis's jaw when he was pinned against the ropes though (came close on a few occasions, I'll grant him...). But what of it really? Tua and Tyson punched harder than Rahman and neither man phased Lewis. Was Rahman more technical than them? Not really. Sometimes you just get that perfect shot on your opponent. Even an average puncher can score a knockout with one of those. Rahman didn't need to be a good finisher on that night. As for his finishing ability in general, I'd say it was alright. He generally stopped the majority of fighters he downed, whilst Shavers often struggled, sometimes against quite mediocre opponents. Something he's been criticised for in the past. You're right though, regarding Rahman: he is rather difficult to place as a puncher. In fact you have to look to his early fights to even know he's a puncher to begin with since he's had so few top wins. Saying that, I'd say there's enough evidence at top level, for me to state that he was definitely a very heavy handed guy. In addition to being the only man to one shot Lennox (I don't count McCall here) he was also the first to down Tua and knocked out a man that took bombs for eight rounds from Vitali in Corrie Sanders. The common link in all these fights is that he was able to land his shots on them. I can't think of a situation off hand where he was unloading punches on a guy and failing to get them out of there. Yeah, sure it shouldn't just be dismissed, I'm not saying that. Just weighted correctly.