Max Schmeling vs Sonny Liston

Max isn't getting inside a prime Liston's reach and if he does, he's getting met with some of the most lethal fists in boxing history. A slugger like Max Baer, with minimal (comparatively)boxing ability, took out Herr Max. Liston is a highly skilled boxer in addition to being a deadly puncher. He stops Schmeling within 7.

 

marty marshal?

 

Also Leotis, Summerlin 2X, Joiner, Whitehurst 2X and Machen all demonstrated that it was possible to weigh under 200 pounds and hang with Sonny throughout his career span.

 

Schmeling defeated a young Joe Louis by countering every time Joe Jabbed and dropped his left.. Not sure if this would work on Liston who had an incredible reach advantage and loads of power behind every punch he threw. My guess is Sonny wins this and probably early.

 

Ali was about twice as fast of hand and reaction than Schmelling, taller and much rangier and still got tagged with the jab even if he did at times counter it. Even if he did counter it occasionally, he has longer arms and faster hands to do so, it doesn't mean the smaller slower Schmelling could do so.

MAchen had given up trying to win though, effectively in a shell. He might have survived but would he have if he was trying to win?

Has about as much relevance to the discussion as Schmelling being sparked in 1 as a LHW, ie not much.

 

nice analysis

 

A tougher fight for both men than one would think, Schmeling was smart and had speed and good power in the right hand, Liston had the edge in reach and I think Max had about an inch on Sonny....My initial reaction was Liston by KO but Max had a hell of a right hand and the difference in the fight could be Maxes ability to keep Sonny at bay countering the jab with a hard right hand but could go either way

 

Not to sound arrogant, but when I put it all together it seems to me that:

Liston's right is better than Max's.
Liston's left is better than Max's.
Liston hits harder than Max (with either hand).
Liston is bigger than Max.
Liston is stronger than Max.
Liston has a longer reach than Max.
Liston is a better boxer than Max.
Liston is every bit as fast as Max.

Where exactly is Max's advantage?

 

chin, seasoning, elite reliability, and toughness. Sonny was too much of a monster for his own good. The one way traffic he experienced on the way up bypassed the necessary deep water struggle world class fighters are required to draw upon. Its unfortunate Sonny never got big durable guys like chuvalo or miteff, fighters he could beat on who would not quit and make you work like Schmeling had with uzcudun and risko, a fighter pays his dues in those fights. Schmeling would tough it out, mark my words he would hang with Liston all night and max hit harder than Ali and Martin and marshall.

 

Even accepting all this [and I definitely do not buy the first and last assertions, nor the suggestion that Sonny had a harder right than Schmeling], does Sonny have the advantage over Max in brains, mental toughness and other intangibles? Schmeling was in the process of trying to return to his feet after the last knockdown against Louis, when the towel from his corner came sailing in before his eyes, and he got up from that monstrous knockdown of Baer's. In the post fight interview after the Louis rematch, he demonstrated full recall of what happened, no compromise of retention. Leotis put Sonny's lights completely out, like Weaver did Tate's.

Stamina is clearly in Schmeling's favor, being a veteran of 12 and 15 rounders by his peak. He would not be intimidated by who he was facing [anymore than Machen appeared to be], but focused on what he could do himself, what factors he could exploit. A late round drowning could well be his objective.

Please keep in mind that Liston is my pick via decision, but it's no walk in the park for Sonny [whose left eye could well be a mess when it was over].

 

Liston is stronger, and better fighter.
Liston KO

 

OK, well if you want to approach it by those rules, Liston hit harder than Max Diekmann, Gipsy Billy Daniels and Larry Gains, all of whom stopped Schmeling.

I will address the rest of your post later. Pressed for time this morning.

 

This is the problem with Liston, not many opponents came to win. Mike Tyson says recently that when he hit guys sometimes the punch missed and guys would go down and pass out, such was his intimidation over many fighters. The same can be said for Liston. However, unremarkable fighters who did not bother anyone else were suprisingly resistant against Sonny if they were ignorant of Listons reputation. Liston was a great fighter with huge assets and spectacular wins but was too short on competative fights to easily dismiss such a reliable elite performer as schmeling.

 

Might be a good time here to point out that three of Liston's opponents under 200 pounds went the ten round distance with him in rematches. [Of course these would be Marshall III, Whitehurst II and Joiner II.] They were neither ignorant of Sonny's reputation, or intimidated by it. They knew the reality of Liston. This was also true for former sparring partner Leotis Martin. To them, Sonny wasn't some myth or fable, but a flesh and blood competitor. I believe this is also how the intellectual Schmeling would have regarded him, not with a fearful gut, but analytical mind, regardless of never having shared the ring with him before.

Schmeling was prepared for the lethal Louis he'd seen against Max Baer when they first squared off in 1936. Unlike most of Joe's other opponents, he was not intimidated in the least by the Bomber. He wasn't intimidated by then heavyweight champion Dempsey in a 1926 exhibition at Cologne, but fought right back when the Mauler tested him. His risked his life protecting Jewish children in his apartment during Kristallnacht. He was later severely wounded as a paratrooper at Crete, yet came back after the war in a comeback successful enough for him to permanently regain his financial footing. Erase intimidation as a factor in Liston's favor. Sonny would need to earn it a harder way.

Let's reiterate just how resilient Max was. He came back from an early starching by Larry Gains. He came back from another one in a rematch with Gipsy Daniels. The Schmeling-Heuser one punch blowout [before a live audience of 70,000] is on youtube, one year after Louis II. He came back from the Battle of Crete after over eight years on the shelf. The only reason we compare him to rival Sharkey is because Max didn't have an opportunity to continue his career through the early and mid 1940s. Give him that interval of active competition, take away his war wounds, and we might be comparing his longevity to Moore's, Duran's and B-Hop's. Sonny didn't typically blow out people in the first round, they had a chance to get going. Schmeling-Liston will have a chance to get off the launching pad.

Joe did the smart thing ambushing Max in their rematch, but Louis was strongly motivated by redemption before the world. In more "normal" circumstances, Schmeling was perfectly capable of starting fast in big bouts. He did it against Walker [decking Mickey hard in the first], and won EBU LHW and HW Title fights in the opening round. [Patterson, for whatever it's worth, was typically a slow starter with only three career first round knockout wins in 64 fights, against several opening round KDs and those two knockouts at Sonny's fists.]

Intelligence and courage are not a bad combination of assets to carry into the ring against the likes of Liston. No way Sonny ["I ain't got no dog proof ass!"] matches the death defying Max [illegally protecting those kids] in those areas.

 

Did Diekmann, Daniels and Gains all hit harder than Schmeling?

Take your time. [And stop rubbing it in that you actually have a life!] I've learned a lot more from you over the years than I could ever possibly dream of teaching you!:bowdown