Calzaghe Fans: "Joe was better than Hagler"

To keep it relevant, I'd say Hopkins-Tito, RJJ-Toney, Hagler-Hearns, and recently, JMM-Pac IV, Rigo-Donaire, Pac-Cotto, like that are great wins.

I wouldn't classify any of Ward's wins as great either. BUT Ward himself would be a great win as just watching him fight, he is clearly the best prime fighter Calzaghe would have faced. He is prime, he is riding a wave. And he has cleared out his division. He's beaten all relevant players.

As for the rest, whatever. I'm not going to get into slagging Calzaghe. It's old and it's boring. He had really good wins against Kessler and Lacy and Hopkins. But in some peoples' eyes, that "0" means more than it should. To me, who the "0" was earned against is more important than if there are losses on a fighters ledger. That's my chief point. And it applies across the board. We can agree to disagree.

 

i agree, they are great wins. but you have to look at all sides of the coin when judging a few that you have there.

Toney was drained and was famous at the time as being all over the place. i see it as a very good win. that's not Jones' fault, but would he have taken the Toney fight if he was at his best? there is no evidence to suggest he would.

Hearns, although a great win, he was 2 weight divisions smaller than Hagler. same thing with Tito and Hopkins.

Pac would have got full credit for a great win if he didn't make Cotto take off the 2 pounds in weight. it takes the edge off slightly. and you can't say it didn't matter because Pac and his team wouldn't have demanded it if it didn't help. Roach even admitted that it was to weaken Cotto.

i would have classified the Froch and Kessler wins as great if Ward didn't cheat and fought clean in them. hell yeah. but that isn't the case.

there isn't enough evidence to claim Ward being a great stand alone fighter without him cheating. he uses it as his main weapon. what is Ward like in there without it? we really don't know. what we do know, is that he fights dirty in the big ones or has them drained. there is nothing legit there. that's a fact.

Groves
Degale
Oosthuizen
Steiglitz
Dirrell
Bute
Stevenson (when he was there)

he hasn't fought these. so no, he hasn't cleaned out the division. if he fights Carl in a rematch and beats him within the rules, then i'll give him the credit for the win. but not until.

i'm cool with you thinking Kessler, Eubank and Lacy are just very good wins and not great, but i can't believe you don't think the Hopkins win is a great one.

if Joe was in his prime, then yes, it would be a very good win. but Joe was past his best also so no one really had the edge in that fight.

but yeah, cool. :good

 

I'd say the only name on there that Ward needed would be Bute, and we all know what happened there. I'd like to see Groves and maybe Oost in there with Ward. But I do think he took on most of the major players and that is enough for me to say he cleared it out. Same with Calzaghe back in the day. Didn't get everybody, but enough for me to say he cleared it.

As for the Hopkins win, I did score it for Calzaghe, but it was a stinker for both guys. Maybe that weighs it down for me. But, it's more the age thing with Hopkins. I know Calzaghe retired shortly thereafter, but that was by choice, not because he was washed up. 43 is beyond old in boxing years, and the fact that Hopkins is still doing the things he is is remarkable, and does reflect favorably on Calzaghe. I can't think of another fighter who I'd classify a win over at 43 years old as even a "very good" win. It's a trap in every sense of the word. Win, and of course you won.....the guy's old. Lose, and you lost to an old man. The question always end up being "what would the fight have been like in his prime?"

 

regarding Bute, we both know styes make fights. just because Froch did it, doesn't mean Ward would have. i would have picked Bute due to the fact that he could do it which ever way Ward wanted it...

boxing in a cautious manner at range.
using that big uppercut when ever Ward stepped in (this is the main reason why i think Ward dodged the fight) and minimizing Ward getting in close too often.

it would have depended on what Ward would do. if Ward had intentions to get real close to Bute, i think he would have knocked him out. Ward is open for that shot when he steps inside. we've seem it before.
and if Ward had of been cautious, then a boring UD for Bute.

i think Bute is done now though. Carl ruined him.

i think any of those fights are good to go, but especially Groves and Thomas as you say, are the ones that wet the appetite more.

Calzaghe REALLY cleared out the division though. that isn't up for debate. the few that he didn't fight was down to them not wanting it. that isn't the case for Ward, they would happily fight him. not in Jokeland, mind.

it was a stinker. which was unusual for Joe as he was in exciting fights with lots of action the vast majority of the time. but i see where you're coming from. i don't let that get in the way though. same goes for Rigo/Donaire fight. it was horrible, but you can't deny Rigo. bad fights to watch just happen sometimes. nothing you can do about it.

i don't think the age should be a sticking point when you consider that Hopkins is basically a one off... the guy is a freak. he's still doing the business all these years later. age is just a number really. there's been lots of fighters who were already done in when they should have been in their absolute prime in their late 20's. so i don't read too much into their age. they either have it, or they don't. substance.

Joe was definitely coming to the very end. he went out at the perfect time. i don't think people should view that negatively, especially when they frown when fighters go on too long. damned if they do, damned if they don't.

the amount of trouble that would have been eliminated had they fought in their prime. same goes for Jones.
Calzaghe was willing to prove, but the dance partner wasn't. it's **** to see Joe get dumped on on this point. he really wasn't the one to blame. :good

 

****, these are some seriously long posts from me. Lol.

 

We both know that's not true.

 

No. People on here (possibly not even big Calzaghe fans) are trolling your dumb ass because of your incessant hounding of a man who retired years ago. It's actually sad to see that someone cares so much to keep re posting the same threads, over and over and over. Sad little man.

 

lmao:rofl

 

I just meant that Ward and Bute didn't fight due to the way things shook out after the S6, although I think Ward beats Bute fairly convincingly, if not quite so dynamically as Frochy. Ward is very, very good at taking his opponents out of their game.

Hopkins age would definitely be a factor. There's just certain things a body cannot do as well as age progresses. I think at 33, it's a completely different fight.

Joe's end was a good for him. Who can blame a guy for hanging them up when the desire isn't there. But, IMO Joe did have quite a bit left in terms of his ability to win at the top level. He was coming off a recent run of very good comp(with a few exceptions) over the previous 2 or 3 years, so it left the impression of unfinished business.

I think there was plenty of blame to go around for why the top fights didn't happen for Calzaghe. Calzaghe included, but obviously not limited to him. I truly believe that the biggest reason that fights don't happen, on any level, comes from the business end.

 

Whoever has Calzaghe and Hagler in the same sentence without trolling needs to be hanged.

 

Fixed :deal

 

Much better. :good

 

the Ward/Bute didn't happen due to Ward, not Bute. that was a fight that had been good to go for some time. there was no reason what so ever for it not to happen. a blatant duck from Ward. Bute even agreed to have the fight in Oakland.

the style didn't match up well with Ward as i've pointed out. Ward has fought against fighters that have zero inside game. Froch, Kessler, Dawson and the supposed Pavlik fight. all suit Ward stylistically.

the only fighter that had any sort of inside game was Bika, and look what happened there? he struggled in a close fight. Bika had been out for 18 months as well. Ward isn't what you think. that will soon become apparent. he isn't going to be anywhere near to the ATG that some loony's on here claim.

Hopkins at 33 wasn't as polished as he was later on. he was a bit ragged. very good at what he did, but not as good as he would later become.

Joe would also have been in his prime. Hopkins isn't getting anywhere near to a close fight with him then. he got Joe at the right time to look as good as he could. a prime version of Joe beats him a lot easier.
if Hopkins were to use the same tactics as he did by moving around and making Joe come forward, then Joe had a much more solid base with his balance to cut off the ring and do damage. it was too loose later on in his career and not as strong. that much is clear when watching the two versions of him. he walks Hopkins down and cuts off the ring faster and stronger so it wouldn't be as successful.
if Hopkins wanted to try his luck by trading (which he did more of in his younger days) he's getting beat up. he'd be forced to go on the back foot. he isn't keeping up with Joe what so ever.

Joe wasn't completely gone, but what else was there for him? Dawson wouldn't have been worth his time because he brought noting to the table. and Pavlik got slaughtered by Bernard. had Pavlik of won that fight, then i think Joe would have taken him on, got paid nicely for it, out classed him, then retired. but Pavlik lost bad. it made no sense at that point in time or any time after that. Pavlik was damaged goods.

Dawson can't even be close to being considered unfinished business. he meant nothing then, and that didn't really change throughout his career. he was overrated and unimpressive. it wouldn't have made Joe's overall standing any better, IMO.

you can blame the business end for the Jones fight because he was smart enough not to **** it up. he avoided the fight in a smart way. he knew how good Joe was.

Hopkins on the other hand, made a huge **** up. he was asked what it would take for him to fight Joe.

his demands: fight takes place in America. check
he gets the biggest pay day of his career of $3 million. check.
his demands were agreed to. the **** up for Hopkins was that he thought that Wa55en wouldn't be able to put the money up, so he'd be able to dodge as well. when it was put up, he **** himself and asked for double the next day. that was entirely down to Hopkins. no one else. plain as day. it was a duck.

Jermain Taylor did the smart thing when asked about fighting Joe... he said yes, but for $ 10 million. he was never going to get such a stupid amount. he came from the same school of dodging as Jones. Hopkins though, ****ed it up. :deal

 

i think that Hagler is great enough to be put in the same sentence as the great Joe Calzaghe. yeah. :good