Was Muhammad Ali really that undertrained in Manila?

Dundee said he was well trained. And, as you said, no one in bad shape would have done what he did. But maybe he wasn't as trained as Frazier was. He seemed to have underestimated Frazier to some degree.

 

There are plenty of people who say Ali wasn't doing his best training for that fight, including some who are not exactly friends of his. (See Mark Kram and Ghosts of Manila for example). He's also been chronicled saying at least two things to Frazier during the fight that seem like they back up the idea that Ali was underestimating Frazier. First, at the end of the 4th, I think, he got so frustrated with the fact that Frazier wouldn't go down that he starting calling Frazier a stupid, stubborn chump, and then there's the famous "Joe, they told me you was all washed up" "They lied!" exchange.

So, I don't think he completely gave up on training, but he did do a lackadaisical job of it. (If, for example, the Foreman fight gets an A rating for training camp, maybe this one gets a B- or so). The weight was there and the flab was visible. If he was 224 at the weigh in, (and keep in mind Ali's best fighting weight was generally between 214 to 218 to 220) then you know he was higher than that coming into the ring.

He underestimated Joe, and he paid a hell of a price for it.

 

I agree with that he probably underestimated Frazier to some extent, but I don't think he was flabby. Him being 224 probably had a lot to do with him lifting weights before the fight, the first time he did so I think.

 

Ali would have taken any version of Frazier very seriously.

 

He was a bit flabby for this fight as he was for a few others.

 

No way. No way Ali could have made it through the Thrilla in Manila if he was undertrained. That fight was fought in a ring where including the lights the temperature was over 100 degrees. And the pace of that fight was torrid and brutally intense. The only way both fighters lived to see another day is because they were in such great condition and and had so much heart and desire to win. Those two would have rather died than lose to one another.
Secondly Ali was no dummy. It is true that at many times in his career he picked his spots when it came to training for fights. There were some opponents where he would undertrain for that he didnt percieve as threats(Coopman, Young, Wepner,Dunn for example) But against guys like Frazier, Foreman, and Norton he knew those guys required a serious training camp and good preparation on his part to come out a winner.

 

I remember this fight from when I was a kid. The message conveyed in the media -- in 1975 and in the years after -- was that Ali was in excellent shape for the Manila fight. Supposedly he was in his best condidtion since winning the title from Foreman in 1974.

If you watch the fight, you will see that there is no possible way Ali was not in peak condition. He took gruelling punishment from Frazier, survived it, and came back to score a TKO. Ali must have been in superb shape in order to do this.

Most other heavyweights in history would have caved in under Frazier's pressure that night in 1975.

 

His performance clearly showed he was in great shape ... no way he survives that pace in that heat against Frazier otherwise ...

 

Nah, no way he could have been, otherwise, who knows, he really might have died that day, seeing as how he said he was near death.

 

The sad reality is that Manila is what started Ali`s demise... That fight was living hell. What other heavy could go woth Smokin Joe like that, in that heat, and pound him into submission. I am a huge Smokin Joe Fan. But I don`t know of anyone who could have gone to the well the way Ali did in that fight. I know some might say Holyfield. But Holy wasn`t fighting a focused,determined angyr Joe Frazier...

 

If Ali did what he did when he was still Clay, training at the 5th St. Gym in Miami, the only roadwork he did was chasing tail to the beach a block away.

 

He wasn't as well trained for Manila as he was for Norton II [212], Frazier II [212] or Foreman [216]. If he had been, Joe might not have reached the championship rounds. Frazier was not nearly as impressive for the Ellis rematch as he had been for Jimmy at the outset of 1970. Ali had also stunned Joe badly a year and a half earlier in round two of their second fight. There was nothing in Frazier's post title history to suggest there was still anything left of what he shockingly produced in Manila. Cosell interviewed him that morning, and noted he still had a "bit of a paunch," which Muhammad casually brushed off with good humor.

Like race horses however, boxers need to compete into condition as well. Ali had been extremely active since regaining the title, getting valuabley extended by Wepner, Lyle and Bugner [the latter in the daytime blast furnace of Kuala Lumpur, a situation where Muhammad had largely initiated the action, done most of the work, yet finished fresh].

Ali's training wasn't optimal, but his battle preparedness through his three previous title defenses in 1975 was perfect. He had no rust whatsoever, and had ideal preparation for a longer distance by going 15 with Wepner and Bugner. In order to avenge Wepner's referee ruled knockdown against him, he subjected Chuck to a relentless attack through the championship rounds which payed off with 19 seconds remaining in Cleveland, after which he collapsed in the ring from this late exertion [as he later did in the Philippines]. The competitive drive from that effort would pay off hugely in Manila six months later.

I think an argument can be made that he was actually better trained for Dunn the following year [at 220].

Yes, he was undertrained for Manila, but not egregiously so. He was in prime condition, but not the post exile peak condition we saw him at in 1974. If he'd achieved a measure of training which replicated his 212 for Frazier II, Joe may not have gotten out of the middle rounds, saving Ali substantial punishment.

 

Interesting post but the bottom line is no one fights at that pace in that heat against that level of opposition without being in terrific shape ... Overall Ali's second title reign was pretty disappointing ...

 

Ali was in outstanding condition.

I believe the extra weight was calculated. He wanted to stand in the center of the ring and drive Joe into the canvas. He tried. Ali believed Frazier would buckle under those combinations. Ali never punched that viciously in his life.

Ive also heard that the weigh in was a few days earlier than normal so neither guy was down as low as they would eventually get.