Ali's Disappointing Second Reign ...

Depends on how "questionable" is defined here. Ali battered a foundering Ron from one neutral corner to his own corner, then the other neutral corner with 46 unanswered punches. Lyle never made an attempt at returning fire or clinching to interrupt the momentum against him. The assault began almost at the outset of round 11, and there were still two minutes to go when Ferd Hernandez stopped it. A well conserved Ali was never going to punch himself out, not after the championship round display against Wepner less than two months earlier. Lyle was not coming back from this. It was over.

 

Well, Ed Schuyler of the Associated Press, Steve Wilstein of the United Press, Dave Anderson of the New York Times, Phil Pepe of the New York Daily News, Leonard Lewin and Paul Zimmerman of the New York Post, Bob Waters of Newsday and David Nightingale of the Chicago Daily News all scored it for Ali.

So as I said, whatever your personal scorecard may say, the claim that he "clearly" lost to Norton is just not true.

 

Ali was already defeated in the court of much [if not most] popular opinion when he entered the outdoor ring at Yankee Stadium that night. Only a stoppage win might have placated his critics. [I say might, because that hasn't stopped the naysayers who claim Ali halted Frazier in Manila only because Futch blinked first when Muhammad was supposedly about to quit before the bell to start round 15.] It's all crap of course, the same garbage 1970s Ali was sure to get whenever he didn't perform up to his 1960s peak after the final bell rang. Norton was the beneficiary of hyper-inflated expectations and a hyper-inflated, carefully managed and fabricated reputation, subsequently boosted by the Bobick anomaly. But he was not ever "all that." Check out Caracas and Shavers for the truth.

Mercante, Lederman and Barney Smith were a far more impartial jury than most observers were, resulting in the only UD of their rivalry. 9-6, 8-7 and 8-7 are not wildly disparate cards. [The official round by round breakdown of each card could admittedly be a different matter.]

Ali knocked out Foreman in George's first match after crushing Norton in Venezuela. He stopped Lyle in 11, and halted Frazier after 14 in Manila the year before Norton III. One year after Norton III, he decisions Shavers in a match even Earnie agrees he deserved the verdict in, via a unanimous 9-5, 9-5 and 9-6 in rounds. Does a champion Norton last the distance against any of those four opponents at the time Ali halted them? I'm not even comfortable picking Ken against Bugner in Kuala Lumpur. [Bugner had more experience over 15, and the power to hurt Norton. I do not believe the reverse was true. If this one actually becomes a matter of who wants it more rather than less, Ken could be in serious trouble here.]

Muhammad was the first man to stop Lyle. Foreman nearly got killed replicating the same feat. [By the time Lynn Ball replicated this in December 1979, it no longer mattered that much, as Ron was older than Ali.]

For eons, a harsh spotlight has been placed on Ali-Young. Maybe some of that should be directed towards Norton-Young. Who was better against Jimmy? Who was Jimmy better against? Young blew his shot by trying to out-Lyle Ron in his earlier challenge of Ali [but Lyle actually did succeed in getting Muhammad to do a little less through the first ten rounds]. A dismally conditioned Muhammad initiated the "action" and made what little fight there was of that fiasco, while Young kept ducking through the ropes. Ali did much worse than expected, Young did much better than expected, but that in and of itself is not sufficient for the decision to be rendered in favor of one or the other. By default, I believed Ali did "better."

Here, I'll just come right out with it. I gave Young the first three rounds and round 14, 5-4. [Scoring was on the five point system.] I had Ali sweeping rounds four to 11 on what little initiative there was by either participant, all by a score of 5-4. I gave Ali round 12 5-3 on the basis of the standing knockdown administered by Tom Kelly after Jimmy got hung up on the ropes, Ali round 13 by 5-4, and only round 15 was even 5-5. My final total does match judge Terry Moore's 71-64 card. [For whatever it's worth, none of the judges gave Young either round two or three as I did. Larry Barrett had round three even, while all other scoring was in favor of Ali in these two rounds.] I'd have sure liked to see how Jimmy handled Ali over Muhammad's first five rounds against Mac Foster, or the early rounds of Ali's title defense against Bugner. Muhammad did all right when carrying the fight to his opponent while in good condition. Ali may not have looked that dismal physically, but check out how severely winded he is in his interview following an exhibition shortly before Young! He clearly wasn't ready, and may well have flunked a fitness readiness standard.

To reiterate, doing better than expected or worse than expected does not justify changing the outcome. The only question is who does BETTER [sometimes by default, because the loser does worse]. Period.

 

u post long **** , u ignore de trus , u hev n ajenda .
det woz superficial boxrec / history riding .

Ali vs 4man woz no fluke nor woz it a bed dei 4 4man @ de ofis , it woz de bigest scam in de history of dis sport .

Ali "halted" Frazier due 2 a puffing around Frazier's ais , in e fait det hi woz going 2 quit in / luz bai wei of sevir concussion .

Ali stopped a yet iven older dan himself Ron Lyle , wum woz not det gud 2 begin wiz .

Ken Norton woz not clowz 2 bi'ing gr8 rili , end hi woz e firs raival 2 Ali .

 

Too bloody right !! Only a sadist or/and someone who needed to go to Specsavers,would say that fight should have been allowed to continue.

 

I have a copy of "A Clockwork Orange" in my library. Please stop plagiarizing Anthony Burgess's Nadsat lingo, and try using an original style of writing for a change.

 

Those cards are absolutely bogus and nothing you can say changes that. Norton won no less than 9 rounds. He beat Ali from pillar to post and clowned him at times.

As for the Young fight, I haven't seen it in a long time but I remember Young landing more clean punches and I think he won more rounds too.

 

Really, it was indeed that first major right which did the damage, but Ron wasn't recovering like he earlier did when Jerry Quarry similarly hooked him into the ropes. Lyle wasn't competing anymore, he looked like he was warding off a swarm of bees. Even Chuvalo fired back some punches after Foreman rung his bell [and I do feel that was a premature stoppage at the instigation of Chuvalo's manager Irving Ungerman]. What do you suppose happens if Hernandez does nothing, a 5-0 round for Ali at best for Lyle?

If most of Ali's follow-up barrage had no steam, and wasn't connecting on Ron, then why did Lyle not attempt to return fire? He did it against Quarry after Jerry stunned him before that round was out. Why did we not see him repeat this in the most important match of his career?

Are you claiming Muhammad somehow punches himself out, then Ron stages a comeback after round 11 to win the title? Ali did most of the work over the final five rounds against Wepner, and also most of the work his next time out for the Bugner rematch, in scorching midday heat. Lyle was much the harder puncher than Muhammad, but Ali had proved he could hurt Ron, and severely so, with a single shot. The reverse wasn't true. Doesn't matter whether or not Ferd Hernandez stops it, it's over. Muhammad had secured ownership of all rounds from 11 on, so long as action continues.

 

Seriously, I haven't watched these films anywhere the level of most of the posters here but, I am pretty sure the Anubus is putting on a clinic in arguing his point. This is a very imformative read by all particapating posters.

I was all ready to switch Ali to my number two greatest heavyweight at the begining of this thread...but, after reading the rest of this, to my chagrin, Louis will remain at number at that spot.

 

What you folks do not seem to realize is We never saw the best of Muhammad Ali..
Ali was denied a licence for 3 1/2 years while in his prime. He was not allowed even to train officially.. OK you can say he was wrong and should have joined the army, incidently I admire him for sticking to his religious principals. Ali refused induction on religious grounds and as history shows he was serious in his beliefs. Many others fled the country to avoid the draft including one William Jefferson Clinton who's only punishment was being made President of the United States.
Just imagine what would be being written about Ali now had he not been forced to take that unfair hiatus?????

 

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Yes, and Ron immediately snapped to and protested the stoppage lucidly the instant Hernandez called it off. But the fact remains Lyle DID freeze up while the action was underway, foundering around and not competing. 46 unanswered punches [with no end in sight] is an obscenity, and Muhammad could have unloaded another bomb like the one which started it all at any time.

I've never scored it, and had the subjective impression at the time that Ken got the better of it. However, that is NOT the consensus opinion by viewers of the complete event as posted over the years by commentators on youtube. Scores of 8-7 and 9-6 in favor of Ali seem to be the general opinion, with the case for Norton being a minority opinion among these reviewers. [Many of these fans who were not yet born when it took place are now in their mid to late 30s, and are not tainted with contemporary biases and before the fact expectations, which then strongly favored Norton, after Ali turned the HW Title into a circus with the Young debacle, Inoki and the whole professional wrestling indignity, where Ali was diligently fashioning himself as a heel.]

Ken, because of his natural physique, was perceived as somebody always in shape, who would dignify the championship with respect. All he had to do was get to the final bell for many to declare him the rightful champion. Instead, he did just enough to lose, Ali just enough to win.

Watch the first several round of Ali-Norton II. Ken just follows a dancing Ali around the ring while nary throwing a punch, permitting the retreating Ali to do all the scoring. Norton was not always a hustling Frazier in crucial situations, but sabotaged himself with undue caution.

Ali-Norton III was Ken's to win, but like Jimmy Young, he blew it. What the hell was he doing over the first 2:30 of round 15? The guy who ended that reign was the guy who closed the show most impressively, and it wasn't Norton.

 

I agree,droogie. Frankenfrank trolls real horrorshow !


Horrorshow's the operative word.