If Liston was in 1967 WBA Tourney

i dont see liston winning this at all unless he gets a bunch of easy drafts such as mildenberger etc. Id pick Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena to beat him. And Ive even give Patterson a shot based on Liston being the more shot of the two.

 

Maybe a shot, but Sonny looked good against Clark and was several rounds ahead of Leotis at the stoppage. Particularly in the Clark go I can't see Floyd lasting the ten.

 

Liston also beat Amos Johnson in '66, who was ranked about 7th or 8th at the time.

 

Perhaps if the tourney had started in 1968, Sonny MAY have been given an invite but as a previous poster had said, he was still fighting in Sweden against questionable opponents in early 67. I thought Leotis was a very suitable replacement as he seemed to be coming on against Jimmy until the bloody nose, mouth injury got worse. One thing that always boggled my mind at the time was the over-hype surrounding Thad Spencer who had only journeyman victories at the time and was considered by many to be the favorite going in. IMO had Floyd got past Jerry he would have laid the wood to Thad and we would have seen a Floyd-Jimmy scrap six-months earlier. Sidebar: after the Quarry loss, Thad's subsequent record until his retirement was a 'sparkling' 0-7-1.
All in all, I thought they assembled a good eight for the tournament. I was pumped at the time for all those WWS Saturday bouts.

 

Sonny was noticeably huffing and puffing at this stage in longer bouts, as Cosell presented an observation of during Liston's win over Clark. Klompt is somebody I have great reservations about contradicting, but I do think Sonny's jab carries him over Jerry, and possibly Jimmy, who were both stamina challenged at times. The Bear was extremely enthusiastic about taking on JQ after stopping Clark, and would enjoy some significant advantages in long range combat. Bonavena though had the combination of mental fortitude, strength, stamina, mobility, punch and cut resistance to outlast Liston at this stage.

I believe Floyd was a far more savvy and resourceful operator following Liston II. He was younger than Sonny, far more disciplined in his training habits, and never gassed. Cooper was a tremendous knockout win off of Ali I, and he showed considerable intelligence with Chuvalo in 1965.

A third bout between Patterson and Liston during the latter half of the decade would likely have seen the older Sonny overconfident, and the younger Floyd wiser and more determined. Patterson fought two stupid fights against Liston in 1962 and 1963. Chuvalo, Machen and Cooper were not stupid displays however. Jerry could bait traps for Floyd in 1967, but Sonny would have had no such surprises for Patterson by then. It would not have been the first time Floyd had turned the tables on somebody who had previously blown him out.

 

joe frazier even in 1967 would expose the poor overrated ***** quitter and would give him a beating.

 

Ernie Terrell was considered the tournament favorite on the day it started.

Spencer beating him was a definite upset.

I'm in the camp that says Sonny didn't have enough left to get through the tournament.

Doesn't much matter, Frazier was going to destroy whoever won the tournament.

 

Fleischer died in 72. He did what few even thought of doing....he sided with Ali while all others were stripping him of his title. Ring did not vacate the title until Ali officially retired in 1970.

Few rated Ali as an all time great up to 1972 when Nat died. Ali was considered by most as a fringe all timer at best. Nat listed Marciano at no 10 all time. He felt off the first bout with Frazier that there was no way Ali could beat Marciano. this certainly was very understandable. Had Nat lived to see Ali triumph over Foreman and show all time great heart vs Frazier in Manilia I have no doubt he would have revised his all time rankings.

 

Ali thought Sonny would beat them all.

 

Don't confuse a lot of good critics with Fleicher's woeful all-time rankings, which were outdated and no longer taken seriously by the 70s. The one decent thing Bert Sugar did when he took over at The Ring, was re-do these all-time rankings, which were becoming a bad joke, a farce even. Even if Nat had seen Ali re-gain the title he 'may' have squeezed him in at 10.

As an example, Boxing News had Ali '5th' by the end of 1971 (this is after Frazier I). I'd imagine Boxing Illustrated had him quite high also. I probably have evidence they do somewhere.

 

Liston did not beat anyone of relevence for years. He got koed by martin and ali gave him a good whipping twice. Yes he did beat the tall guy right before his death. I am not conviced he'd beat jimmy ellis, as Ellis was a very good mover. I do not know if he'd beat terrel, because terrel might just have enough size to not get knocked out, (I' mean being 6 inches taller than liston might mean he sees all the head shots coming and manages to move out the way or deflect them enough to avoid the ko). Liston could subsequently tire and get knocked out himself. and you also have to bear in mind Terrel was called the Octopus because he would wrap up guys so much and lean on them. Liston could still win of course but it'd not be an easy thing nor guaranteed by any means.

 

Good info. Was Sonny banned from the WBA toruney? He wanted the title back, and I'd pick him to win it. Was he slower in 1968. Yes, for sure, but he still hit hard, had skills, and too much reach for the quicker boxers to over come.

 

bonavena would have kicked the ass of 67 liston, ellis would outbox him at this point, quarry was too young, too dinamic, too mobile for this version of liston

 

Quarry was quicker than an Old Liston and he may pepper him but at the same time Sonny`s jab would have been a BIG problem for Jerry`s tender skin. Cant see Quarry overcoming that jab.