Have boxing skills progressed, or have they regressed?

pecho26 · Jun 24, 2013

Tommo said: ↑

I will not because that is an entirely subjective thing to do. Those trainers may very well be the "best" at that. But without knowledge of modern training methods and modern needs, they'd not be effective to their full potential.

There is no way to say Kostya Tszuu or Adam Booth are any worse trainers than Futch or Dundee or Goldman... They have had a full training career, whereas todays trainers haven't, they had a long list of fighters under their belt to consider, today's haven't because they are recent, and most importantly they are hyped up and made famous!
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Kosta Tsyzu was awful in Guilermo - Lebedev.He could have ruined his fighter in that match for good,by not stoping it.
There is no trainer today in the range of Dundee or Futch,boxinng skill wise.

Beouche · Jun 24, 2013

Loudon said: ↑

rusak,

Of course I don't want a number you fool. You see plenty of fighters today throwing uppercuts, and lots of body shots? Well, I don't. I don't think it's as common at all. Wlad doesn't throw many punches at all, let alone body shots.

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort, stop twisting my words and implying things. What I'm saying is, I believe that the top fighters of the past, generally had better defensive skills.

He wasn't easy to tie up when he was young. He had a great bob and weave style with great head movement. All that stopped after prison. There was little head movement and hardly any combinations etc.

I'm talking about decent fighters and top fighters. They didn't have other jobs, because they fought every 3 to 4 weeks.

I won't be falling flat on my face at all, it's you who's used a basketball analogy and fell on his face. Seriously, what am I going to gain by looking for examples and posting them on here? You'll just say they're exceptions etc.

If boxing has progressed skillwise, then that must mean that today's fighters are the best? Yes?

According to you, that must mean that today's top fighters, must be better than fighters of the past.

So name me the best 5-10 in any weight class you want.

Let's look at that for evidence.

Would today's top MW's have beaten Hagler and Monzon? Not in my opinion.

Would today's best WW's have beaten SRR and SRL? I don't think so.

Would today's top SMW's have beaten Calzaghe? Not a bloody chance.

Would any of today's best LHW's have beaten Spinks and Foster?

I could go on and on.
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Good post mate.

Loudon · Jun 24, 2013

Tommo,

Loudon, even sports like swimming and sprinting have a huge element of skill involved of course and aside from their physical fitness having improved over time for their sport which you don't deny, their skills and techniques to improve them have likewise improved over time because shaving seconds off their time counts. Now boxing is a more highly skilled sport, probably the highest. But it requires about half skill, half conditioning. You cannot be very successful under usual circumstances with only one or the other. So from the get go you have admitted that atleast the physical aspects have improved which is half the battle.
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You can't compare swimming and sprinting to fighting. They are racing against a clock. A swimmer today that has better training facilities, who's more athletic, and is fitter and stronger and has a better diet, is more than likely going to be more successful than a swimmer of the past.

A boxer needs to master a lot more skills. You can have the fittest guy in the world, but he needs to master many more techniques. So sports science and nutrition and training facilities etc, aren't going to be as important to a boxer, as what they are to a swimmer and a sprinter.

Unfortunately Loudon, the skills of the boxers have obviously also progressed. Trainers have looked at what needs to be done to win in general and beat certain opponents and refined those skills over time and provided their fighters with continuously improved methods for training those skills. Take Kostya Tszyu's method of tying a ball to a headband to hit and train his timing and accuracy under pressure. New things get thought up all the time. And the old methods that are tried and tested are still used and either refined for what's necessary or supplanted by something better. It's continuous improvement and it's here in every aspect of life including boxing.
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If skills of boxers have obviously progressed, then why are Benny Leonard and Roberto Duran still considered to be the best LW's of all time?

Why are SRR and SRL still regarded as the best WW's of all time?

Now I can go across each division.

Why is Hearns still considered the best LMW ever?

Why do knowledgeable fans, respected sports writers, boxing historians and old fight trainers believe the above to be true?

I have thought about what you said and compared fighters past and present in the different weight divisions and I gotta tell you, there are some exceptional champions from the past like Ray Leonard and SRR that would still be great boxers. But on the whole I see definite improvement. Kostya Tszyu, Manny Pacchio, Floyd Mayweather would belt the **** out of the guys from yesteryear and you're right the evidence IS on film, from my point of view it just points the other direction.
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Rubbish!

Floyd and Manny would have beat the **** out of Ray Leonard, Ray Robinson, Duran, Hearns and Benitez etc?

You listed the basic skillset of boxers before. I'm sorry but everyone of those is subjected to the continuous improvement I spoke of before. Today trainers have video access of all the fights and more tools to break it down and analyse what needs to be done, they have improved methods to train those skills to be more efficient and effective than before and their efforts will pass on to the next generation as well.
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Do you seriously think that young trainers of today, are going to study old black and white footage of fighters of the past for hours on end? Sadly all the old trainers that had supreme knowledge like Futch, Arcel, Cus, Dundee, Manny Steward have all gone.

When you say boxing has regressed and say SRR is the best boxer of all time you gotta admit at some point in the future there will emerge a boxer who is better, there just has to it's inevitable! The law of the future says that as long as boxing exists it will only improve, especially when to pool of fighters and trainers is growing!
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That maybe so, but don't you think 70 years is enough, to consider someone else the greatest pound for pound fighter of all time?

Again, name the best fighters from each weight class who's ever fought, and I bet that the majority of them are fighters of the past.

You like to concentrate on footwork a lot. Footwork is the base skill of all boxers but your interpretation is much different than mine. Dancing around the ring out of range IS running and avoiding the fight whether because your opponent is powerful or you need time to think or whatever it is proven to be a waste of energy. The positioning to slip, counter and all the things done off good footwork can be done with the minimum of movement and that is the best form! And that is what is practiced today.
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I don't believe that you've boxed. Because anyone that's boxed wouldn't call Ali a runner etc.

Dancing around the ring out of range is running and avoiding the fight
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Defensive masters kept their opponents out of range and off balance, so they could counter. Hit and don't get hit. It's not a waste of energy, if you're frustrating your opponent, and you make him make a mistake, and then capitalize. It's not a waste of energy, if you're scoring points and not getting hit is it?

Your manner of argument on this issue is not liken the rest Loudon, you really watch the fights and interpret things that way but I see it clearly opposite, I can't believe after watching guys of the distant past in general compared to the guys of today that you think they are more skilled.
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Well lets list some fantasy match ups then.

The best fighters of the past, vs the best guys of today.

You pick any weight class of your choice.

I'll go first.

Hagler vs Martinez at MW.

Imo some of them look like back yard fights! LOL Boxing has DEFINITELY progressed as an art, it's more refined than ever. Even the OAFS like Fury are more skilled than the oafs of the past like Carnera!
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That's one example.

Lets compare the best of yesteryear vs the best of today.

Loudon · Jun 24, 2013

Tommo said: ↑

Absolutely agree with Mendoza! The first lot of skills have not been lost, they are no longer as necessary or as effective because the bottom lot have improved. This is what I have been trying to say all along. Boxing has evolved and the style has improved! How many punch bags are there today? Most boxers will retire with their health intact now because they fight smarter!

It's there to see and it's really a no brainer! A fighter from the past would be in big trouble today even if he was as fit because they did not learn how to properly keep their oppoenents at bay. Take Frazier, he was able to work his way inside Ali who is supposed to be the greatest all time to nostalgists. Let him try it against Wlad Klitschko or Lennox Lewis and he'll be looking at a 1st round KO!

In the past, fights were probably more exciting because they involved guys with lack of a decent defense in general and it was like a constant war of attrition. Today, with harder punches to contend with you cannot fight like that otherwise you will quickly get knocked out! Evolutionary pressure from more powerful athletes alone made it necessary for fighters to develop more defensive styles leading to outfighting over infighting!
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Frazier wouldn't make it past the first round vs Wlad?

Like Sanders, Puritty, Brewster and Peter?

Are those four fighters who caused Wlad hell, superior to Joe Frazier?

He went life and death with Peter, but Frazier would go in 1?

Loudon · Jun 24, 2013

madballster said: ↑

All these elements have improved markedly over the last 100 years. Just like in every other sport.
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So today's MW'S are the greatest MW's of all time then?

Today's WW's must be the greatest WW's of all time?

Today's LHW's must be the greatest LHW's of all time then?

Etc, etc?

Loudon · Jun 24, 2013

Tommo said: ↑

Let's see how we go with Loudon's list...

Have fighters today generally got

Better footwork? Definitely
Do they throw better hooks? Most Definitely
Better jabs? Oh yeah
Do they parry better? For sure
Do they block better? You bet
Have they got better timing? Absolutely
Do they throw better body shots? No not as much because it isn't as necessary or as effective as yesteryear.
Are they better conditioned? So much so it's silly to compare
Do they throw better combinations? The combinations they do throw are sharper. More elaborate ones I doubt though because the price of having a combo broken and countered is far higher.
Do they throw better uppercuts? Those that use uppercuts as part of their style throw them much better, those that don't need them to win get by fine without it.
Are they better at fighting on the inside? On the whole not as many fighters rely on infighting as much as the outside game has progressed far enough to somewhat nullify it. Fighters have learned how to keep swarming opponents at bay. Note however, those fighters that DO rely on their infighting skills are definitely more effective at it!
Have they got better head movement? Of course they do!

Look at your poll. Consider that fans hold past fighters dearly and that ESB represents the highest concentration of bias toward the old timers we can find, the fact such a large percentage can see the truth through the propaganda speaks volumes!
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Some of your comments are absolutely laughable.

Today's guys don't throw as many body shots, because it's not as necessary? Ha!

If everything above is true, then today's fighters MUST be the best fighters of all time then, yes?

Martinez must be the greatest MW ever?

Floyd Mayweather must be the greatest WW ever?

Do a poll.

Loudon · Jun 24, 2013

dinovelvet said: ↑

Thats the most ridiculous argument ive ever heard. You cant teach technique by showing fight dvds. If thats the case i can go down my local boxing gym and train the guys by pressing play on the dvd player.
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Eric cantona · Jun 24, 2013

Every sport has progressed. Sports where you can make direct comparisons like time or distance there is no argument.
With other sports its just nostalgia.
In 100 years Pele will still be the greatest ever footballer
Ali will be the greatest ever heavyweight
SRR the greatest ever
Bradman the greatest ever cricketer
Fangio the greatest ever racing driver
Jack Nicholas...
Joe Montana...

These guys will always be knowin as the greatest ever whether its true or not

janitor · Jun 24, 2013

rusak said: ↑

More nonsense. Some technologies were lost when they were completely eclipsed by new ones. Even this is unlikely today, because the details of any major technology would be recorded somewhere, even if it became obsolete. However, relevant skills in a particular field such as boxing do not magically become lost - that's absurd.
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Technologies don't get lost, but the skill sets required to implement them frequently do, especialy when there is no organised system of recording and teaching them.

If Mike Tyson came along today, who would you employ to train him?

What about your boy Wlad Klitschko?

Loudon · Jun 24, 2013

Beouche said: ↑

Good post mate.
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You've snuck Joe in. Ha! :good

Loudon · Jun 24, 2013

Eric cantona said: ↑

Every sport has progressed. Sports where you can make direct comparisons like time or distance there is no argument.
With other sports its just nostalgia.
In 100 years Pele will still be the greatest ever footballer
Ali will be the greatest ever heavyweight
SRR the greatest ever
Bradman the greatest ever cricketer
Fangio the greatest ever racing driver
Jack Nicholas...
Joe Montana...

These guys will always be knowin as the greatest ever whether its true or not
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Do you think that today's crop of MW's are the best MW's of all time?

Do you think today's crop of WW's are the best of all time?

Do you think today's crop of LW's are the best of all time?

Eric cantona · Jun 24, 2013

Loudon said: ↑

Do you think that today's crop of MW's are the best MW's of all time?

Do you think today's crop of WW's are the best of all time?

Do you think today's crop of LW's are the best of all time?
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A think on the whole the best of today are the best..
Obviously there were people of yesteryear that had outrageous talent like the sportsman mentioned above but they would loose if they transported here today.
But give them the benefit of sports science, modern coaches, good nutrition and maybe Jesse Owens would run 100m in 9.4
Pele would score 5 a game.

LikeFatherNSon · Jun 24, 2013

Skills have regressed for sure.

Eric cantona · Jun 24, 2013

Loudon said: ↑

Do you think that today's crop of MW's are the best MW's of all time?

Do you think today's crop of WW's are the best of all time?

Do you think today's crop of LW's are the best of all time?
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We could argue all day about individuals but i would say

Hw: no 1 beats Lewis or a K brother
MW: ward calzaghe(substitute RJJ if u must) Hopkins, aren't far away from best ever
Lw: can't see many beating Floyd or that we Chinese looking guy who didn't take the test.

So?

janitor · Jun 24, 2013

Eric cantona said: ↑

We could argue all day about individuals but i would say

Hw: no 1 beats Lewis or a K brother
MW: ward calzaghe(substitute RJJ if u must) Hopkins, aren't far away from best ever
Lw: can't see many beating Floyd or that we Chinese looking guy who didn't take the test.

So?
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