ESB Weight Obession: Class vs Mass

I will throw something in there.

I think that while bigger heavyweights are generally harder punchers, most of the best finishers through history, have been comparatively small heavyweights by today’s standards e.g. Dempsey Louis Tyson. 5' 11'' to 6' 1'' seems to be the typical height of an all time finisher.

It might be that smaller heavyweights adapt better to this style of fighting, or it might simply be that they need to adopt this style of fighting more.

 

Lennox Lewis ducked 210lb Chris Byrd but was willing to take on big heavyweights.

 

People who employ the size and evolution argument almost never apply it fairly or consistently, because they will generally try to suspend their own argument when it works against them.

If they were fair and consistent in their argument, they might well still end up picking Lewis or Wlad over Dempsey and Louis, but they would say something like:

"You know what, they did score some pretty impressive wins over some decent superheavyweight sized fighters, that’s all I can really ask for given what was around at the time, I would put them at the absolute forefront of their size class in terms of ability to overcome this type of fighter"

Instead they try to argue that this is the sole case where size really doesn’t count for anything. They accuse the supporters of smaller fighters of saying that size doesn’t count for anything, but they are the only group that does literally take that position when it suits their purposes.

 

There is little more appealing than seeing a short (comparatively), stocky heavyweight swarmer throw in the utmost of his weight and leverage in searching for a knock out. With that little tangent aside, or as a segue rather, I am unsure why you are so obsessed with pointlessly trolling, Tommo. That, or you are lacking a few marbles.

A well-built heavyweight should be able to knock out anyone, really. I really use the term loosely here to refer to anyone 175 pounds or greater, regardless of size, and in shape for the most part (though some defy the rule). The amount of momentum an average featherweight puncher would generate in a swing is not remotely comparable to that of a heavyweight, respective to his own class, let alone when trying to combat bigger guys.

Weight class has also become a misnomer due to how weigh-ins have changed over the year. A good recent example: upon moving up to welterweight, Paulie Malignaggi was speculated as having had some increase in power (to what degree, and whether truly accurate or not is another issue). Conversely, Adrien Broner, who moved up two weight classes but really was a "fat lightweight" who has missed weight in the past and weighed around/more than Paulie, and was much stockier, well.. he failed to put a dent in Paulie.

On the other hand, we saw what Michael Spinks did to Gerry Cooney. On that note, those are also two modern competitors to suit your nitpicking. Unless you are to insinuate that Gerry Cooney, who possessed one of the most vaunted heavyweight left hooks of all time, is also a bum.

 

To add to the thread, I thought I would be remiss to not point out that Frazier floored Ali despite being a very, very small and somewhat pudgy heavyweight. And we know how lauded Ali is his for his chin.

 

Good finishers, as a rule, are sharp punchers. Whirling assassins, fast-firing snipers, they attack accurately in combinations. When the oponent is hurt and focussed on defending, it takes a keen eye to see the gaps.

There's exceptions like Foreman -- but then again, since he could hurt people with arm punches, he could pull the trigger pretty fast. When he was older, he was a notably worse finisher.

 

He was also slow and fat, and he was slow even in his prime.

 

Class vs Mass is a nice starting point for a debate, but if boxing was all about working out mathematical theories to figure whom would beat whom, then there would be no need for the sport, as everyone would know who is going to win.

There are few if any general rules to this debate, virtually every fight needs to be a considered a one off.

The one thing that some do not take into account and bias is the sport evolves. Different skill sets were/are needed at different times.

Also with advances in medical science Joe Louis would be a completely different beast if he was active in this era or indeed if he were active in Jeffries/Johnson's era.

Comparison is ridiculously hard at least if you want your opinions to be respected.

Often the best posters on this forum are the one's who recognize the limitations to their conclusions.

 

1908-1915: Jack Johnson - 209.7 / J. Willard - 238 ( Won)

What does this mean? That Johnson beat Willard?

 

This in probably the most important coment written in this entire thread.

 

I made a similar list a while back of fighters winning though outweighed by at least 30 pounds.

1891-04-27 Bob Fitzsimmons vs Abe Coughle 160 lbs vs 230 lbs KO2
1892-04-26 Bob Fitzsimmons vs Charles Puff 155 lbs vs 230 lbs KO2
1892-09-07 James J. Corbett vs John L. Sullivan 178 lbs vs 212 lbs KO21
1900-04-30 Bob Fitzsimmons vs Ed Dunkhorst 170lbs vs 260 lbs KO2
1900-08-10 Bob Fitzsimmons vs Gus Ruhlin 158 lbs vs 195 lbs KO6
1913-05-20 Gunboat Smith vs Jess Willard 180 lbs vs 230 lbs W20
1914-07-01 Joe Jeannette vs Battling Jim Johnson 197 lbs vs 240 lbs W10
1916-02-01 Jack Dillon vs Tom Cowler 170 lbs vs 205 lbs KO2
1916-06-29 Jack Dillon vs Frank Moran 169 lbs vs 204 lbs W10
1916-12-12 Sam Langford vs Battling Jim Johnson 191 lbs vs 224 lbs KO12
1917-05-01 Sam Langford vs Bill Tate KO5
1917-09-28 Billy Miske vs Carl Morris 178 lbs 228 lbs W10
1918-04-08 Billy Miske vs Tom Cowler 175 lbs vs 210 lbs KO7
1918-12-16 Jack Dempsey vs Carl Morris 185 lbs vs 220 lbs KO1
1919-04-02 Jack Dempsey vs Tony Drake 197 lbs vs 257 lbs KO1
1919-07-04 Jack Dempsey vs Jess Willard 187 lbs vs 245 KO3
1920-11-17 Sam Langford vs George Godfrey KO2
1921-03-18 Tommy Gibbons vs Al Reich 182 lbs vs 219 lbs KO1
1921-08-17 Sam Langford vs George Godfrey 185? lbs vs 220 lbs KO1
1922-09-26 Harry Greb vs Al Benedict 173 lbs vs 210 lbs TKO2
1924-03-31 Tommy Gibbons vs Soldier Lee 180 lbs vs 210 lbs TKO3
1925-01-30 Tommy Gibbons vs Tiny Jim Herman 179 lbs vs 225 lbs KO3
1930-11-28 Mickey Walker vs KO Christner 166 lbs vs 202 lbs KO1
1931-04-10 Mickey Walker vs Bearcat Wright 168 lbs vs 210 lbs W10
1931-08-17 Mickey Walker vs Jack Gagnon 167 lbs vs 209 lbs KO1
1931-10-21 Max Baer vs Jose Santa 204 lbs vs 244 lbs KO10
1932-07-25 Mickey Walker vs Salvatore Ruggirello 169 lbs vs 205 lbs KO1
1932-12-06 Mickey Walker vs Arthur De Kuh 175 lbs vs 223 lbs KO1
1933-11-22 Tommy Loughran vs Ray Impellittiere 185 lbs vs 255 W10
1934-06-14 Max Baer vs Primo Carnera 209 lbs vs 263 lbs KO11
1935-06-20 Tommy Loughran vs Ray Impellittiere 188 lbs vs 254 lbs UD10
1935-06-25 Joe Louis vs Primo Carnera 196 lbs vs 260 lbs KO6
1939-06-28 Joe Louis vs Tony Galento 200 lbs vs 233 lbs TKO4
1941-03-21 Joe Louis vs Abe Simon 202 lbs vs 254 lbs KO13
1942-01-09 Joe Louis vs Buddy Baer 206 lbs vs 250 lbs KO1
1942-01-28 Billy Conn vs Jay D Turner 183 lbs vs 227 W10
1942-03-13 Charley Burley vs Jay D Turner 151 lbs vs 219 lbs TKO7
1942-03-27 Joe Louis vs Abe Simon 207 lbs vs 255 TKO6
1946-03-04 Joey Maxim vs Panther Williams 184 lbs vs 220 lbs UD10
1948-03-09 Jimmy Bivins vs Turkey Thompson 185 lbs vs 222 lbs UD10
1948-05-07 Joey Maxim vs Francisco de la Cruz 189 lbs vs 238 lbs PTS10
1948-09-14 Rocky Marciano vs Humphrey Jackson 183 lbs vs 254 lbs KO1
1948-12-10 Ezzard Charles vs Joe Baksi 178 lbs vs 210 lbs TKO11
1950-09-18 Rocky Marciano vs Johnny Shkor 190 lbs vs 220 lbs KO6
1950-09-27 Ezzard Charles vs Joe Louis 184 lbs vs 218 lbs UD15
1950-12-18 Rocky Marciano vs Bill Wilson 190 lbs vs 229 lbs TKO1
1951-06-09 Archie Moore vs Abel Cestac 177 lbs vs 224 lbs RTD9
1952-02-01 Roland LaStarza vs Bill Wilson 190 lbs vs 220 lbs KO4
1952-11-24 Harold Johnson vs Nino Valdes 176 lbs vs 210 lbs UD10
1953-07-01 Bob Satterfield vs Bob Baker 180 lbs vs 214 lbs KO1
1955-08-17 Bob Satterfield vs Nino Valdes 183 lbs vs 215 lbs UD10
1956-04-04 Willie Pastrano vs Johnny Arthur 188 lbs vs 228 lbs UD10
1956-04-16 Archie Moore vs George Parmentier 193 lbs vs 233 lbs TKO3
1956-09-29 Joey Maxim vs Edgardo Romero 191 lbs vs 249 lbs PTS10
1957-12-17 Harold Johnson vs Sid Peaks 179 lbs vs 215 lbs KO5
1966-01-17 Joe Frazier vs Mel Turnbow 199 lbs vs 231 lbs KO1
1968-03-04 Joe Frazier vs Buster Mathis 204 lbs vs 243 lbs TKO11
1969-01-10 Jerry Quarry vs Charlie Reno 201 lbs vs 251 lbs TKO5
1969-03-24 Jerry Quarry vs Buster Mathis 196 lbs vs 234 lbs UD12
1976-04-30 Larry Holmes vs Roy Williams 205 lbs vs 238 lbs W10
1977-04-16 Gerry Coetzee vs Mike Schutte 210 lbs vs 266 lbs W12
1980-03-31 Larry Holmes vs Leroy Jones 211 lbs vs 254 lbs TKO8
1985-04-29 Tim Witherspoon vs James Broad 222 lbs vs 261 lbs KO2
1985-12-06 Mike Tyson vs Sammy Scaff 215 lbs vs 250 lbs TKO1
1987-06-15 Michael Spinks vs Gerry Cooney 208 lbs vs 238 lbs KO5
1988-04-26 Donovan Ruddock vs Larry Alexander 226 lbs vs 256 lbs KO2
1990-03-02 Ray Mercer vs Kimmuel Odum 213 lbs vs 246 lbs UD12
1990-10-25 Evander Holyfield vs James Douglas 208 lbs vs 246 lbs KO3
1991-04-19 Evander Holyfield vs George Foreman 208 lbs vs 257 lbs UD12
1992-02-01 Michael Moorer vs Mike White 225 lbs vs 275 lbs UD10
1992-11-13 Michael Moorer vs Billy Wright 224 lbs vs 257 TKO2
1993-06-07 Tommy Morrison vs George Foreman 226 lbs vs 256 lbs UD12
1994-01-29 Donovan Ruddock vs Anthony Wade 241 lbs vs 290 lbs W10
1998-07-14 Chris Byrd vs Ross Puritty 213 lbs vs 247 lbs UD10
2001-10-13 Ray Mercer vs Brian Scott 237 lbs vs 274 lbs KO2
2003-03-01 Roy Jones Jr vs John Ruiz 193 lbs vs 226 lbs UD12
2004-11-13 Chris Byrd vs Jameel McCline 214 lbs vs 270 lbs SD12
2005-05-17 Eddie Chambers vs Ross Puritty 217 lbs vs 253 lbs UD10
2005-12-15 Sultan Ibragimov vs Lance Whitaker 220 lbs vs 272 lbs TKO7
2007-04-14 Ruslan Chagaev vs Nikolay Valuev 228 lbs vs 319 lbs MD12
2007-05-26 Alexander Povetkin vs Patrice L'Heureux 223 lbs vs 270 lbs KO2
2007-06-02 Sultan Ibragimov vs Shannon Briggs 221 lbs vs 273 lbs UD12
2009-03-27 Eddie Chambers vs Samuel Peter 223 lbs vs 265 MD10
2009-10-24 Tomasz Adamek vs Andrew Golota 214 lbs vs 256 lbs TKO5
2009-11-07 David Haye vs Nikolay Valuev 217 lbs vs 316 lbs MD12
2010-03-13 Alexander Povetkin vs Javier Mora 223 lbs vs 257 lbs TKO5
2010-04-10 Evander Holyfield vs Frans Botha 220 lbs vs 250 lbs TKO8
2010-04-24 Tomasz Adamek vs Chris Arreola 217 lbs vs 250 MD12
2010-08-21 Tomasz Adamek vs Michael Grant 217 lbs vs 261 lbs UD12
2010-10-16 Alexander Povetkin vs Teke Oruh 227 lbs vs 264 lbs KO5
2012-07-14 David Haye vs Dereck Chisora 210 lbs vs 247 lbs TKO5

 

Of course, if you look at who is fighting whom many of those fights above are substantial skill mismatches, or the bigger fighter was past prime, or had a weak chin. It's very rare to see a prime A level small guy beat a prime A level big guy. Mostly it goes the other way.

 

To sort of quote Disraeli/Twain:

There are lies, damned lies and statistics...