'Tony Zale would lick him' Graziano when asked about a SRR vs Zale match up

Let me reiterate something here. I'm not saying Zale wins. I'm merely scoffing at the notion that some have that SRR blasts him out of there easily (something he NEVER did to the better middleweights [the Fullmer one-shot KO aberration aside]) or coasts to an easy decision. That flies in the face of all we know of SRR as a MW.

 

Who can say "what one fight" was the best of Tony Zale ? All I'm implying is that Tony Zale pre WW 2 was a powerful, strong MW,who had a reputation of when necessary absorbing great punishment and turning the tide and winning. He when at his peak was called by many boxing writers as being "the greatest comeback fighter in history". There was no MW since Greb any tougher than Tony Zale before WW2...Whilst Ray Robinson ,the best all around fighter ever and the best I ever saw ringside by far, was at his best as a WW, primarily I believe, for his height advantage of almost being 6 ft tall, but as he became 31 years of age and had to fight MWs, he was not as dominate as he was a welterweight. And this thread is about
what Graziano stated " Tony Zale would lick Ray Robinson ", both at their best...Not P4P...If Robinson couldn't flatten a Marty Servo twice, A WW
Kid Gavilan twice, a WW Carmen Basillio twice, why would he be so certain to beat as a WW or older MW, a pre WW2 powerful tough guy like the durable 160 pound Tony Zale ? Of course anything is possible when SRR was in a ring, but a prime Tony Zale was a bridge too far as a MW. cheers...

 

SRR fought rugged military body-puncher types such as Carmen Basilio and Gene Fullmer. They are legends in their own right and could certainly "spar" with Tony Zale. SRR withstood their bodyshots in full 15rd fights as well as knocked out Fullmer with ONE punch in his late 30's. I'm not saying Zale doesn't have a chance, but SRR knocked out Graziano's mouthpiece, so I'm not going to trust Graziano's opinion about Zale "licking" Robinson.

 

As durable as Greb? Not really.

From what I read Greb was KO'ed only twice in 299 fights. I will take Lamotta as tougher than Zale everyday of the week. Tony, as great as he was, was KO'ed 6 times and few times early in the fight. How can he be as tough as Greb or Walker for that matter?

I don't see the harm to Robinson in not putting guys like Gavilan and Basilio down. We see how Carmen's eye looked after the second fight with Robinson and how he keep fighting through it. That is not the type of guy that goes down easy. When the ref stopped the Fulmer match, where Carmen was taking a beating, yet was going crazy about the fight being stopped. Gavilian was never KO'ed in his career.

Robinson whether he was domainant or not matters little. He beat every middleweight he faced pre-1952, aside from drawing with Basora, including Jake Lamotta, more than once. Zale the best comebacking fighter? Robinson retires for three years, comes back and takes the middleweight title, beats two Hall of famers including KO'ing Gene Fulmer. That is what I call a comeback.

I did not put Zale against the Robinson p4p best. I put his best performances against a middleweight. I chose Lamotta VI or Graziano. I like those against any version of Zale. Pre war and post War Zale was KO'ed. Robinson has the power to KO him. And Robinson is faster, considerably taller, a better mover, and a better boxer, on top of that was no slouch in-fighter either. I think every advantage goes to Robinson. Does this mean that Robinson wins? No. It means that he Zale has a lot to overcome if he is going to beat Sugar Ray Robinson.

This content is protected

This content is protected

http://www.boxingpress.de/records/MICKWALK.HTM

This content is protected

http://www.boxingpress.de/records/LAMOTTA.HTM

This content is protected

http://www.boxingpress.de/records/TONYZALE.HTM

This content is protected

http://www.boxingpress.de/records/HGREB.HTM


Editors note:
I respect and admire that you were ringside. I am enjoying the discussion and I am learning tons. I hope discussiong doesn't discourage future discussions. Thanks.

 

JLP. I said Tony Zale was as durable a MW SINCE Harry Greb.
Many columns of articles of those days cited Tony Zale as the 'Greatest comeback " fighter...MEANING he was able to come back during a bout after taking a beating in a fight...NOT coming back after a layoff !
To compare the WW Carmen Basillio against a much bigger Tony Zale is silly...
Believe what you wish J, but I remember those days and Ray Robinson great as he was as a big WW and older MW, NEVER met a searing puncher as Tony Zale, who was a heavy fisted ,rough and tough middleweight in his prime. ciao...

 

Ciao. Thanks for the convo

 

In terms of Robinson outboxing a top flight middleweight. Fullmer was strong, awkward and had an iron chin. Not an easy guy to get room against to out box. Zale was certainly a hard puncher also more conventional in terms of style.

 

I get your point but just for the record Robinson did blast out Rocky Graziano and Bobo Olson pretty early. Not saying they were as good as Zale but they were certainly among the better middleweights.

 

Keep in mind also that those two weren't what I would consider to be rugged middleweights. Graziano was also at the very end of his career and was no longer a ranking fighter. He was one of the most overrated and protected MWs in history.

 

I have nothing but respect for Mr. Fullmer. An excellent win for SRR. :smoke

 

Interestingly, I seem to recall the television announcer explicitly state earlier in that match that Robinson was NOT a one punch knockout artist. Then, Robby ironically produced as definitive a single punch knockout as has ever been recorded on a visual medium.

 

And a great one punch KO it was :smoke But in all honesty, an aberration. At MW he was still a hard puncher, but not as effective as at the lower weight classes.

 

True, it was lightning in a bottle, but he did have a few impressive knockout wins at 160. Bobo Olson I [which I believe John Garfield witnessed] was a quality knockout win final result for Robinson, despite the significantly heavier Bobo's lack of experience, and reports it wasn't one of Robby's better showings before the conclusion. Two fights later, Olson would get off the deck to knock out Lloyd Marshall in five, but nobody else would stop Bobo before Archie Moore softened him up for Robinson III and IV by crushing Olson in three of their elimination LHW Title bout for the dubious reward of challenging Marciano. [The 21 match MW Title winning streak between Robinson II and Moore is what really got Olson to Canastota in 2000.]

Gene Fullmer II was actually SRR's final great knockout win. At 160, we have Olson I & II [for which Bobo may have been weight drained-he came in for his next outing weighing 187 for Maxim II]. Graziano might be described as a one punch knockout win, but how durable was Rocky? Everybody involved freely admitted that LaMotta was weight drained for the Valentine's Day Massacre. I think I might rate Randy Turpin II as Robby's best stoppage win at 160 after Gene Fullmer II.

Following Gene Fullmer II, Ray had 16 stoppage wins in his final 52 career bouts. As Surf pointed out, the vast bulk of his 108 knockout victories came earlier when he was younger, at 147 or below.

All this, while it may be interesting to some, does not support the likelihood of Ray stopping a peak Zale. I think we'd hear the final bell after 15 rounds.

 

Nice post. Very well thought out and very astute :good

 

Look at this palooka, he still can't give SRR full credit.