ESB Weight Obession: Class vs Mass

This thread is a good example of old time nutbaggery.

JLP says that Roy "bare threw 15 punches round" against Ruiz and won every round. Actually, Jones threw over 35 punches a round, about the same as Ruiz -- and though he dominated the fight, he didn't win every round on my card.

So guys can beat guys bigger than themselves? Wow, what an amazing revelation!

Yes, Marciano KO'd 254 Humphrey Jackson. Jackson had been previously KO'd by a no-name middleweight, but I guess we're supposed to consider this a great achievement on the part of Marciano.

 

Holyfield beat Foreman who weighed in at 257 Lbs. He beat Douglas who weighed in at 246 Lbs. Holmes was over 240 Lbs. He drew with Lewis and lost a close decision to him, Lewis was over 240 Lbs. As pointed out Valuev was 310 Lbs... an old as dirt Holyfield outboxed him but was robbed of the decision. Size isn't everything.

Size does matter though... you have to know how to use it. The Klitschkos know how to use it. Lewis knew how to use it. Ali fought like he was even bigger than what he was. Vs. Ali it was like facing a well skilled 6'6" 250 Lber with speed.

I cant say that I agree with you on Dempsey and Marciano stopping the likes of Wlad or Lennox though. Lewis and the Klitschko's are much more than big men. They are highly skilled fighters.

 

Ali and Louis are two completely different fighters and on different levels IMO. Ali was taller, had a longer reach, and was heavier than Louis. He was also faster and more durable than Louis. At 6'3", 81" reach, and 215 + Lbs. he was plenty big enough. Mix in Ali's other qualities and a strong case can be made that he is still the best HW ever.

Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Johnson, and others? Yeah, probably too small... but doesn't mean they would lose to every decent modern HW bigger than them.

 

JLP your analogy in post #21 is inaccurate because you compare the worst of the modern age to the best of a prior age. Marciano probably could have taken Ruiz too, but there is no chance in hell he's beating Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, or Klitschko. Ruiz is bigger but less skilled. The Klitschko's and Lewis are bigger and just as skilled as the older champs. Primo Carnera and Jess Willard may be the same size as those guys but there is an obvious gulf in talent, which you are not accounting for.

 

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, and some that are outright untrue.

Perhaps it says something that the only way you can pull your favourite fighters up to the level of the greats of the past is to find some ridiculous basis for acting as if most of their wins didn’t happen., and make a colossal assumption about the superiority of their opposition.

 

You are welcome, and thank you for the compliment.

I didn't see that. Forget I mentioned it.

I don't know about that. I can see that fight going like Jones vs Toney. Before his punch resistance left Jones was a beast. Toney could swat too and was very skilled. Like Marciano, Toney had the punch of a much larger man than his figure suggested and it was killing him to make weight down at super middle. He'd just gone 46-0 when Roy took his zero and would later float up to the heavyweight division and throw a beating on John Ruiz just like Roy Jones did. Tarver messed up Jones but that was after Jones' had wrecked his body and couldn't fight like he used to.

Charles and Walcott were very skilled, but Charles was a light heavyweight and Walcott was a cruiserweight. Walcott was 39 when he fought Marciano, had lost 16 and had been KO'd 4 times. Charles was only 33 and he probably wouldn't have been far past prime if he hadn't already fought 100 fights and been in wars with Walcott and others. I liken his condition to the condition Pryor found Arguello in. Arguello was only 30 but he'd already had 90 fights and been in crazy wars with Escalera and others which had prematurely aged his body making him ripe pickings for 28 year old Aaron Pryor who'd only made 31 fights.

Look at the names and records though. Humphrey Jackson, Bill Hardeman, James Patrick Connolly, Artie Donato, Eldridge Eatman, Johnny Shkor, Bill Wilson, Keene Simmons, Don ****ell. A bunch of nobodies with terrible records. Joe Louis, a great heavyweight, was 37 at the tail end of his career after already returning from his first retirement.

Because he'd never fought any quality heavyweight let alone super heavyweights like these two.

I never claimed they were better conditioned, though roids definitely help.

Sure, Wlad has gotten very good at protecting his chin and pacing himself so as not to punch himself out like he did before Emanuel Steward got a hold of him. If Wlad had to fight Dempsey it would look a lot like how Tunney fought him. Every time Dempsey tries to get in close Wlad would tie him up in the clinch. Then when they were split up by the ref Wlad would punch him at range with his longer arms.

A lot is made of Dempsey's knockout of Willard, but Willard had been knocked out before and would be again by other guys. Joe Cox knocked him out before Dempsey, and Luis Angel Firpo knocked him out after Dempsey. Given these other data points for comparison we can surmise that it would take someone with a punch equivalent to that of a 220 pound man to knock out Willard. Dempsey did punch above his cruiser weight class. He punched like a 220 pound man, like a true heavyweight, but that's different from being a hard punching heavyweight like George Foreman or Earnie Shavers. Wlad has been in with guys who hit as hard or harder than Dempsey since his knockouts and triumphed because his defense has improved since then. Wlad might have trouble with Dempsey's crouch, if he was making himself small, but I still see this going like the Tunney/Dempsey fights, or like the Tyson/Holyfield fights.

I wasn't impressed by Lennox' performance against Holyfield either. But even though Holyfield started at cruiser his build was always a true heavyweights. 6'3" 78" reach 215-225 weight, same as Ali or David Haye, not superheavy but not too small to fight one either.

 

Believe it or not, Holyfield is 6'0 3/4" tall; that's his barefoot height measurement. He was always listed as being 6'1" in the olympics and amateurs; he then moved to heavyweight, and he magically grew to being 6'2 1/2". Not that it matters any, but Holyfield was not as tall as Ali or a lot of the past champs.

 

:good