Joe Fraziers chin

I'd have to review it in its entirety to find it, but Ali did similarly stun Ken with a driving right in the middle rounds of their rematch. It doesn't get the same attention, because there was no controversy surrounding it, it happened in mid round, and Norton's foot positioning was such that he couldn't back away from it as Frazier later did in his first rematch with Muhammad.

Ali was near the ropes on the right side of the ring on the television camera perspective, but still in mid ring, and well between the corners. The tailing Norton was in a crouched position. Muhammad drove down and through with his right, and Kenny reacted by rearing upright with his upper body and momentarily wobbling back and forth from his waist like a drunk. He could not back up with his feet, as he was in no posture to do so with his tailing movement, and Ali [who usually demonstrated a good killer instinct] did not attempt to follow up his advantage. If he had, Norton would have been revealed to be in extremely serious trouble, probably more trouble than Frazier was before Perez prematurely intervened.

Ken has claimed that Ali hit him harder than Holmes. To me, that one right hand from Muhammad in their middle bout does indeed look harder and more damaging than anything I saw Larry hit Norton with. [I may review Ali-Norton II to pinpoint the exact punch I'm describing here, so you can check and evaluate it for yourselves. The commentators made note of it when it happened, but I don't think either they or Muhammad fully realized just how seriously stunned Kenny was.]

 

I pretty sure Moore can put Frazier down if Joe was standing on one foot.

The film shows(The full view film of the knockdown, not the lived broadcast which cut it off the feet) Marciano goes in and leans in for a shot (which he misses) and Marciano is pretty much standing on one foot, Moore lands the right and Rocky goes down. I think it had more to do with that than Moore's power imo.

 

That's a major reason Ali dropped Liston in Lewiston. At the moment Muhammad's right landed, Sonny was repositioning himself to follow, and had his left foot off the ground upon missing a jab at the moment of impact. In slow motion, the HD film also shows the back of Liston's head whiplash sharply on impact with the punch, supporting the veracity of Larry Merchant's eyewitness account over that of Jimmy Cannon. Ali had actually unloaded what looked like a much harder right 35 seconds before that knockdown [and the impact was clearly audible], but Sonny was on balance and actively defending against it.

Muhammad's weaker knockdown punch was better timed and better placed, and live broadcaster Steve Ellis [who would die on February 16th the following year from the effects of diabetes related kidney failure at age 48] instantly identified it correctly as a right placed directly on the chin. In terms of placement and impact, it was not unlike the right hand which would send Lyle spiraling downward ten years later. In terms of its immediate effect on Sonny, it closely mirrored the near knockdown right Ali had buckled Liston with to open the third round between them the year before.

I don't think Marciano was hurt by Walcott and Moore any more than Hagler was by Hearns or Cyclone Hart. Rocky denied ever having his bell rung or senses compromised in any way, and was able to describe exactly how Archie knocked him down with military precision [supported by the film] when analyzing the aftermath of Lewiston [which Marciano witnessed and also evaluated with excellent detail].

Jimmy Cannon extensively witnessed both Marciano and Frazier in action, and left no doubt after watching Frazier-Bonavena I that Rocky's chin was clearly superior in an article comparing the two.

 

Now that you mention it, both knockdowns happen in the same manner, but I dont think Moore's shot was as hard as Ali's shot though, Ali put every thing in that punch to level Liston and clean his clock(I am not going to get into the fix fight arguement) balance was the key to both knockdowns/knockout.

Moore saw his shot when Rocky miss and nail him. Of couse Marciano got up pretty fast, were Liston was rolling around. As said every one questions Marciano's chin base on the 2 knockdowns, but I am pretty sure had Ali, Foreman, Fraizer ete been caught off balance, they would have eaten dirt also. Not knock em out, but Moore should be able to floor em.

 

Someone gave me and old Ring and they did a photographic comparison of the two knockdowns. Don't have the mag anymore, though.

 

First of all, like many fans of boxing history I am forever in your debt for your amazing detective work and painstakingly scrupulous research in May 2008 for locating "The Punch" in Marciano-Walcott I during round seven. For me, that's an immortal piece of corrected boxing AND photographic history, and I'll never forget it [or at least until I get Alzheimer's, for which you'll detect the early signs through the upcoming disjointed ramblings].

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What I wanted to do with you was merely broach the Ali-Moore comparison for further discussion, in case the similarities between those knockdowns was being overlooked.

You already know and understand what I'm about to comment on, so this is really for the benefit of newer posters here. [And of course any disagreements you have can be informative and instructive for us.]

Skehan's biography of Marciano romanticized Moore's knockdown of Rocky as perhaps the hardest punch Archie delivered in his entire career, but I've seen other knockdowns and knockouts produced by the Mongoose on films and kinescopes which look harder and better executed. For me, Walcott hit Marciano much harder with greater consistency in their first match [actually knocking Rocky upright and back a couple times] and I think Jersey Joe's left hook knockdown of Marciano was a harder punch than Moore's right. [The force behind JJW's hook swept Rocky upwards, sideways, and down towards his left, not an off-balance connection.]

A few years back, there was a thread asking whether or not posters believed the Lewiston knockdown itself was legitimate, a question explicitly tabling the issue of the subsequent knockout's validity.
[Liston himself privately told his wife Gerry that while it was not a true knockout blow, the knockdown itself was authentic.] Sonny later made it pretty clear he would have beaten the count if Ali had simply went to a neutral corner and stayed there, but he was certainly retreating with apparent distress into a corner in an uncharacteristically defensive posture during Walcott's illicit conference with Nat Fleischer. Back on his feet for that briefly unsupervised resumption of action, he appeared to remain genuinely stunned despite a prolonged stay on the floor to recover from.

Ted Lowry said Archie, not the Rock, was the hardest puncher he ever fought. Hatchetman Sheppard rated Moore's power in both hands superior to that of any other competitive opponent he faced, including Walcott [who Curtis faced in an adjacent bout]. Moore was able to stop Whitehurst twice, something a young Liston failed to do twice.
[Liston-Whitehurst I was a month after Moore-Whitehurst II.] Sure, he could floor anybody when hitting them off balance, as you've asserted.

Personally, I feel Moore and Walcott validated Marciano's chin more than raise questions about it. Frazier, on the other hand, was pretty candid that Bonavena's first knockdown of him was a serious stunner which dropped him flat on his back.

Did Stander really buckle Smoke, or catch him off balance? The camera is on Frazier's back when it happens, an inconclusive angle to me. Jerry Quarry never appeared to have hurt him, despite unloading everything in that 1969 round one.

Besides round two of Ali-Frazier II and the two Foreman bouts, Bugner clearly did buckle him with that downward driving right moments after getting off the deck himself. Ramos drove him upright with the force of an opening round uppercut, but Joe's knees didn't sag, he was just momentarily stopped in his tracks.

So we definitely have round two of Bonavena I, round two of Ali II, Foreman I & II and Bugner. I haven't seen Mike Bruce, so I can't comment. I do not believe Ali ever stunned Frazier in Manila or the FOTC as he did with that one right in their middle bout.

Anybody questioning Rocky's chin needs to see what Charles did to Satterfield. Marciano dealt with that for 15 complete rounds. Much is made of the beating Ezzard took, less of the fact he couldn't dent Rocky with his own heavy guns.

 

Tommo why are you stating as fact that Frazier ducked Norton as if you lived through the era but did not know that They did not fight because they were friend's?

I lived through that era and there was never any talk that Joe ducked anyone. Williams and Liston were fighters from a preceding era that were on their way out as Joe was coming up. I never heard of any clamor concerning Joe fighting Foster and Shavers. Shavers really made a name for himself as Joe was nearing the end of his career.

 

I don`t know of many people saying that Smokin Joe had the best of chins...Good yes, but not solid enough to handle guys who threw big-league bombs... Not just Foreman but,Bonavena dropped him twice and Manuel Ramos rocked him in their short bout. Now I love Frazier, probably one of THE biggest fighting hearts of all champions. but his chin could be gotten by big bangers ...

 

If Liston could have beaten a ten count we never know, because Walcott screw up and lost control of the fight. I think Walcott should have let it gone on, something akin to Dempsey Tunney II long count. I just saying the shot did hurt Liston, he was cleary daze and even failed to get up at one point. Or he could have been playing around if people want to belive that. Liston's head did snap. Also I can see the power movement of Ali's arm and chest when he thown that shot. At the right speed it does not look like much, but slow mo, and you can see Ali's muscle's on his arm and chest, mostly the chest jiggly from the shot. So some force had to be behide that punch. I dont think Liston can beat a ten count had Ali got to his corner, but I can only guess really.

 

And we're completely in agreement here. Like you, I noted the pectoral tension behind that right. Flashbulbs also went off as Ali unloaded that right. [Photographers fixate on a fighter's feet to identify a power punch the instant it's launched, so the shutter click captures the impact of the blow. Those photographers recognized that Muhammad was attempting a shot of potential consequence before it landed. It's how that legendary photograph of Marciano-Walcott I you researched was anticipated and snapped at the precise moment of face distorting impression.]

Jersey Joe forgot he was the boss in there, and subordinated his official authority to Nat Fleischer, who had none. Can you imagine Fleischer altering the history of the Long Count knockdown like that? [Harder to be heard over the uproar of a near record over 100,000 people in an outdoor stadium than it is over a record low indoor crowd of around 2000.] Nat's yelling at Walcott is clearly heard in the Lewiston videotape.

It seems strange that a heavyweight champion wouldn't be a take charge sort as a referee, but we also saw an uncretain Louis had to be yelled at by Angelo Dundee from his broadcast position for Frazier-Quarry II to stop it. [Angie was correct in that case.] Dempsey, Sharkey and Liston himself [four times prior to Lewiston] all seem to have been superior third men to Louis and Walcott in that respect. [Especially Jack Sharkey for Moore-Durelle I & II. Possibly the greatest and most important refereeing performance by any boxing champion was Sharkey's manly restraint for Moore-Durelle I. A great referee is one not noticed, and Jack achieved that in letting both matches reach a satisfyingly conclusive result on their own. I wish Sharkey had been the third man in Lewiston instead. He was just the sort to ignore Fleischer and blow his yelling off.]

Certainly frustrating not to know, but with nearly a minute left to go before the bell rang after action resumed with JJW distracted by Fleischer, there was very little in Ali's seven punch follow-up on a retreating Sonny to suggest Liston would have gotten out of that round. He appeared in far more trouble after 17 seconds on the deck than Tunney was upon getting up from the Long Count, so the ten count possibility you speculate on cannot be dismissed.

Floyd Patterson was in the ideal position to see that punch, and termed it, "a perfect right hand." Jose Torres concurred with "a very hard right." These are qualified observers for assessing such things, especially Floyd, noted for identical hand speed to Ali's. Both he and Torres understood how to assess power. SI's article, along with Larry Merchant's observations, are in agreement with what the unblinking camera reveals about the legitimacy of the knockdown punch.

 

Dont read too much into the first Bonevena fight. It was a young pro`s first step up in competition. It was Frazier`s 12th pro fight and Bonevena was a contender. Joe fought Oscar again in 1968 and he wasnt hurt or close to going down.

Remember Ali got decked by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper as a prospect.

Joe Frazier had a very good chin IMV. Not undentable but he took plenty of big league shots. Hell he got hit full force by George Foreman repeatedly yet never even came close to taking a 10 count.

 

Nat was just a guy in the crowd, He should not of had any real power. Was he a judge? No, was he the time keeper? No, Yes he was the owner of Ring Mag, one of the greatness boxing magzines in history, but that does not give him the right to call the shots.

I think before Nat called Walcott over, Walcott did the right thing in letting them cont fighting. Liston did beat Walcott's so call "Count" by the time Walcott got Ali under control, the ten count from the time keeper was over, and it was not fair on Liston's part that he didnt even get the count of 1. Walcott lost control, and than let a outside force that had no connection to the fight determind the out come. Rule wise if a fighter fails to go to the corner, you get em there and pick up the count, or in the case of Ali, restart the count if I recall.
Some fighters make good refs and others dont.
Dempsey, Sharkey, and even Marciano knew what they were doing(Yeah being the Rocky fan I am, I even got some fights of him being the 3rd man)

Than we get Walcott and Louis who seem not to have a clue. Not to say they were not great fighters, but not all fighters make great refs. Or coachs ete.

 

Frazier had a good chin, not up there with Ali's or Barney Ross's chin. But he could be floor and hurt, and even stop in some cases. To his credit he never got counted it. He was daze and hurt vs Foreman, but his heart keep him from being counted out. I think for Foreman to get a ten count on Fraizer, he would of had to kill him. Fraizer was not the kind of man to take the ten count. No matter what his pride would always left him up for more. As the Foreman fight show. Frazier though getting bounce around the ring show a lot of heart in that one. Perhaps more than the Ali fights? Maybe?

 

I basically agree with your view. At the same time remember Ali didnt get hit with the same clean shots as Frazier. Ali had more options than Joe. Frazier had to come into his opponent and therefore got hit flush alot more. Same for Ross who was a master boxer.

If Ali got hit flush the way Joe did he probably visits the canvas as well. Foreman was just too strong for anyone to catch clean shots from.