Ray Leonard vs. Felix Trinidad

1. Trindad was slow, ponderous, and predictable and did not have "speed."

2. He has no puncher's chance, as Leonard's chin was rock-solid; Trinidad may have a puncher's chance v. Hearns, but not Leonard.

 

Trinidad was just as fast as Duran? I guess he was just as skilled and could tag Leonard just as frequently as Duran did.

Unreal.

 

Yeah, same sentiments.

 

Leonard would crush Felix inside of 5 rounds.

 

Leonard vs Ranzany,Green,Price,etc.
Felix vs Carr,Campos, and Stephens.

Get the picture?

 

Ok, it seems like there was some terminological confusion here. When I think of "speed," I think primarily of "foot" AND hand speed. So you completely flabbergasted me, as I think Trinidad was as lead-footed as they come.

Nonetheless, even reducing it to hand speed, you over-estimate Trinidad's tools a great deal. I certainly do not see Trinidad's hand speed as on par with Leonard's chin. At 147, I would argue Leonard had an all-time great chin; Trinidad does not have an all-time great hand speed. I'd say it's at best average.

Nobody is contesting that Trinidad hits harder than Duran at 147. But that's not the operative issue. For Trinidad to put Leonard in genuine danger, he'd have to land and land punches in succession, and this is what I find hard to envision. And you implied that Trinidad could land on Leonard as frequently as Duran by claiming that their speed is on par, and that's why I objected so strongly to your post. Duran was faster, technically far superior, could in-fight better, and had a higher work-rate in spurts.

Straw-man argument. Don't need to refute bad arguments others made and pretend that those are my arguments.

I've seen every fight of his since Blocker fight except the Roy Jones fight, and I don't believe that. He just was not "fast."

 

Again, putting arguments into my mouth. I did not say Duran was a Meldrick Taylor clone. But he was faster--much faster--than Trinidad.

And I certainly do not equate speed with skill. In fact, I think I posted somewhere here recently using Arguello as a very example of a fighter who was out-boxed by a lot of folks who were technically inferior due to his being so slow. (And frankly, I think Trinidad is a bit like Arguello in this respect.)

 

Yes, but I don't think Trinidad would be able to one-punch Leonard into submission. He'd have to land successively, and this is something I do not see.

I didn't say never hit him at all. Again, see my comment above. Leonard's chin is good enough to survive one concussive blow.

Three more points:

1) I usually don't like arguments that goes something like X hits harder than Y, and Y was able to hurt Y, so X will be able to do just as well. You have to look at the whole picture.

As I have said, Duran is faster, technically far superior, better at in-fighting, and has higher work-rate in-close than Trinidad. So just because Trinidad hits harder than Duran does not mean he will automatically be able to have Leonard in trouble as Duran did.

2) I also think that Leonard simply under-estimated Duran's pop at 147 (with some reason). And as someone who's done a lot of martial arts, including kickboxing, I can tell you that your blow resistance (for the lack of a better word) decreases when you are not mentally ready for it. That is, on the one hand, I've been really staggered by shots from people whom I thought were light hitters because I wasn't ready; on the contrary, I've taken flush shots from people who were big hitters without missing a beat simply because I expected to get hit like that.

Similarly, a good counter-example to the brawl in Montreal is that Hearns hit Leonard with some heavy shots in their first fight, and Leonard never looked hurt. And we know Hearns hits much harder than Duran at 147, and probably in pound-per-pound terms as well. So if you want to keep going back to Duran hurting Leonard, then I will point to Hearns not hurting Leonard as well in their first fight.

3) Since you keep harping on Duran hurting Leonard, I will use a similar logic and point out that Trinidad never had either de la Hoya or Hopkins in trouble, and Leonard is certainly more elusive than either and likely has a better chin than de la Hoya as well. So why should I assume that Trinidad can land enough power shots to put Leonard out, when he couldn't land 1 big shot to even hurt either de la Hoya or Hopkins?

 

Really? I guess I didn't see the Ernesto Marcel fight or the first Vilomar Fernandez fight.

There is not much more I can say about this, as we will be going around in circles, and there is no way to adjudicate in fashion that is satisfactory for both parties. You think Trinidad was fast--so fast that his speed was on par with Leonard's chin--and I do not. Let's just end this aspect of the debate here.