How do you beat Joe Calzaghe?

no calzaghe fans ever respond when i post that movie. it shows how things were at that time. also the wbo wasn't recognized as a major belt when joe won it. that's changed over the years and in all honesty calzaghe is partly why. he became a top fighter in his division and made the wbo legit by holding their belt. just remember when lennox fought evander in '99 for the undisputed heavyweight title it included only three major belts, the wba, wbc and ibf. the wbo gained status a few years after. i cringe everytime someone points to joe's wbo title reign as a reason he was "great." it was so bogus.

 

he had suspicious chin ... so just punch him hard enough and he will crumble

 

Body body body and try landing a liver shot.

 

That would be a fantastic rebuttal if I had actually mentioned "speed" anywhere in my post

By the way, who are these Calzaghe victims with Jones-like speed you're referring to? :huh

 

Does anyone doubt that the one two Roy Jones did to southpaw Reggie Johnson would have put Joe Calzaghe on his rear?

 

cuchulain,

Fair enough, but I don't agree.

Kessler caused Joe problems for the first 5 rounds.

Roy at 25, was on another planet to Kessler.

A guy who had that many problems against Robin Reid and Mikkel Kessler wasn't good enough to beat a peak version of Roy.

Ok.

It's well documented. Frank W said he was an amazing talent, but he never believed in himself enough.

He said he was threatened to go out.

I've heard him say it in an interview, and I've read it before.

But that's irrelevant.

It was a fantastic performance, but he tried to pull out at the last minute, and according to Frank, he wasn't injured, it was psychological.

Now that shows you the mindset that was in.

Add to the fact that he said he knew what his capabilities were, and he'd have wanted the Crown Jewels to face Roy, even though nobody was going to give them to him, then you had a fighter that wouldn't have truly believed that he could have beaten Roy.

Joe had a huge ego.

In my opinion, swerving the fight was better than losing.

I really think that Joe would have struggled psychologically with a loss.

I don't think he'd ever have put himself in a position where he though losing was a realistic possibility.

That's my honest opinion.

He would never have gotten into he ring with Roy at 25.

Ali was young, and admitted that he was terrified of Liston, but he tried to his best to psyche him out and it worked.

I respect your opinion.

But I believe Frank, and if he hadn't have been as strong with him as what he was, then he could have pulled out through an injury.

Do you genuinely believe he was injured each time against Glen Johnson?

I think Joe was a great fighter, but again, I think the size of his ego made him mentally weak.

If you don't agree, fair enough.

I don't believe that Joe was injured all of the times that he said he was, and neither did Frank W.

He pulled out of a lot of fights at the last minute, and Showtime labelled him "No show Joe!"

 

There's not a doubt in my mind that Joe wouldn't have been dropped HAD they fought years ago.

Joe could be lulled into a macho tear up, and was always susceptible to right hands.

He never had a great defence.

Roy would have had no trouble finding him in my opinion.

 

:good

 

Anyone that thinks any version of Calzaghe beats any version of Pre-HW Roy, is out of their mind.

Roy was just superior in all departments, and unlike G-Man, Benn, Toney, Ruiz, Tarver.. Calzaghe simply couldn't hit hard enough to spark Roy out, especially not before he went to HW..

I understand Joe was a great fighter, but he just was not as good as Roy, and didn't own that punchers chance that the above did...

Joe would have been schooled, and even made statements about his chances.. Before being shot, Roy would not have been bothered by the punches, walking punching bag Roy with a glass jaw was able to take them..

Calzaghe fans forget, that shot Roy in 2008 lasted with the 1000 punch output from "shot" Joe.. And they think that same work rate troubles a prime Jones? please.

 

Loudon, you're losing the plot here.

You keep banging on about matters not relevant to my point.

Namely, you keep telling us that Roy would have beaten Joe.

That wasn't disputed.

The shyte in your post was that he struggled with Kessler and Bika.

This is factually incorrect. He beat both men by clear margins of 8-4 or 9-3. Your problem appears to centre on the generally accepted definition of 'struggled.'

So you've said.

As I have pointed out, Joe did not struggle with Mikkel. Taking time to adjust and then clearly defeat Kessler does not equal struggling with him.

Roy's status was NOT the source of the 'shyte' in your earlier post. I'm not sure why you keep harping on it as I have clearly stated that Roy would have beaten Joe.

Yet more revisionism, and still on the 'Roy' topic.

No lad, its far from well documented. It's drivel spouted by a sore Frank ****** in a tabloid rag on account of losing his main meal ticket. After a career of lining Frank's pockets, Calzaghe decided to make a break with the man who had been exploiting him for years.

That you would choose to believe Frank in the matter reflects some naivety on your part.

No.

It's most relevant.

Stating that he 'lost his bottle' facing Lacy is incompatible with the actual facts of the fight.

I've already explained Frank's bile in this matter. But regardless, the man should be judged on how he performed in the fight, not whatever misgivings he may have had (real or imaginary) prior to the fight. In fact, if he were scared and still entered the ring to demolish Lacy, this would indicate even more bottle than had he been supremely confident that this fight was an easy one.

Back to Roy again.

Roy's not the issue here.

More irrelevance.

Aside from being almost certainly wrong, it's irrelevant to the points I raised: your take on 'struggle' and 'bottle.'

That's where your train starts coming off the tracks. Only Bob Arum is more economical with the truth.

Sure thing, L.

"Could have" you say ?


You're just not getting it lad. Your grasp of 'bottle' isn't any firmer than your grasp of 'struggled.'

Do you genuinely believe GJ would have had a prayer ?

His claim to fame was to be in the right place at the right time against a mentally compromised RJJ.

What GJ performance would lead anyone to expect he could beat Calzaghe.

Quite the reverse. But think what you will.

Ah, Frank again. A very credible source.

Frank said Joe was injured THEN. NOW he's saying he wasn't.

Bob Arum once said: Yesterday I was lying. Today I'm telling the truth.

Two of a kind....

Don't think so. Any credible evidence of that (not counting FW's sayso) ?




To summarize:

I criticized your earlier post on the grounds that it stated that Calzaghe struggled with Bika and Kessler. Despite your opinion here, he did not struggle.

Secondly, you stated that he lost his bottle facing Lacy.

That is utterly absurd in the light of what happened that March 6.
And I've already explained why.



I did not take issue with your opinion of how he would have fared against Jones. Your constant reintroduction of that point tells me you're a bit lost here as to what my actual criticisms were.

 

Calzaghe is retired, yet some are still full of "Sour Grapes".................Calzaghe was an extremely talented fighter.............I miss watching his fights..........

 

cuchulain,

If you don't agree, that's fine, that's your opinion.

Ok just for you, he struggled at times, how's that?

Non elite fighters caused him trouble.

He struggled at times. I never said he scraped by him, or he was lucky to win did I?

You believe what you want to believe, that's up to you.

Did Frank hold a gun up to Joe's head and force him to keep signing the contracts?

You can't say that Frank exploited him for years, when Joe made comments about not wanting tough fights etc. He was a grown man, and has to take responsibility for his own actions.

Hatton was more ambitious and walked earlier.

I genuinely believe what Frank said, because he had heaps of praise for Joe, but also told of the frustrations he had managing him, and how it was hard trying to promote him in the U.S. and the difficulties he had trying to impress the Showtime execs etc. He said he was the greatest fighter he ever worked with, but would often pull out at the last minute and he tried to against Lacy. He said that, and Joe to my knowledge has never disputed it. If you think Frank was lying, that's your opinion. I believe him, and I don't believe that he kept getting injured against Glen Johnson.

Well I could say the same to you, if you didn't think there was any truth in what Frank was saying.

It's not in anyway relevant.

Just because he put in a fantastic performance against Lacy, that doesn't mean that Frank fabricated it all and it never happened.

How do you know it was bile?

So you refuse point blank to believe Frank, despite Joe's own comments from the past, and the fact that he cancelled many fights at short notice etc, yet you say I'm naive?

I think you're just looking for an argument.

Whatever eventually happened in the fight, does not mean that he didn't initially lose his bottle and tried to withdraw from the fight.

Why would it be almost certainly wrong?

That's your opinion. I could say the exact same thing to you.

We know Joe's history of contradicting himself. We know he's pulled out last minute against people, we know he didn't want to go to the U.S. in the late 90's, we know he flirted with the idea of going to America and up to 175 in 2004, only to stay til 2008. We know he said he didn't want tough fights, and he wasn't chasing Roy, only to later say he'd chased Roy for 5 or 6 years. We know about the Crown Jewels comment, and his capabilities. We also know that he dismissed Roy on two occasions both in 2007 and 2008, only to then fight him. Joe has contradicted himself many times throughout his career, and has been caught telling porkies. So it would be VERY naive on your part, to completely dismiss what Frank has said, about Showtime, and Joe not believing in himself against Lacy etc.

I've been listening to Joe's interviews and watching him fight since 1996. I Don't believe that Frank was being bitter, and that he fabricated the whole thing. I think he came across in the interview has been very honest. That's my opinion.

Neither is yours.

Just because he ENDED up giving a great performance, it does not mean that he didn't lose his bottle beforehand.

Now that's now what I asked you is it?

I asked you if you genuinely believed if Joe was injured?

Joe was the superior fighter, but in my opinion Glen was a lot stronger mentally than Joe. Psychology can play a huge part, and styles make fights.

I think Glen would have given him a tough fight, even though he wasn't as good as Joe.

But I believe that Joe didn't fancy it.

I agree.

I don't think he could have beaten him, but I think he would have caused lots of problems.

I will. We have different opinions, and that's fair enough. But my opinions are based on what he's said, and the path he took in his career.

Joe had a lot of injuries, but Frank obviously didn't believe that all of them were genuine.

If you don't think he was a credible source, that's your opinion.

But from the way Joe has conducted himself throughout his career, I personally share Frank's opinion.

I haven't got another source no. But you are just instantly dismissing it, which seems odd.

Again, if you don't believe what Frank said, that's fine, but you can't question me for believing it.

I have valid reasons on why I think he was telling the truth.

That's your opinion.

Again, if you like, I'll say that he struggled AT TIMES, and not overall.

Regarding Lacy, I said it was well documented and has never been denied by either Joe or Enzo, that Frank had to threaten him to go out.

That's what Frank said.

I believe him 100%, and if you don't, I've no problem with that.

However, it is not utterly absurd at all.

Again, just because he put in a fine performance, that does not mean that Frank was lying.

It doesn't disprove what Frank has said. Some people have to be pushed. Some people are mentally stronger than others.

Ali said he was scared against Liston, but he tried his best to pretend that he wasn't, and he tried to psyche him out, which he did.

Ali was a master of that. That's why I always pick him over Tyson in a fantasy fight. Because I think he could have broken Mike psychologically.

 

Loudon, unless i've mixed you up with another poster, you were usually pretty reasonable in your comments. Hence, I'm at a loss as to your departure from that practice in this instance.

We seem to be going around in circles and digressing considerably.

My first problem with your original post was your assertions that Joe struggled with Kessler and Bika.

I believe that most would agree that this was not the case. In both cases he won by very decisive margins. In fact he performed better against Bika than did Ward, despite some ridiculous scores from three Californian judge.

It would be a complete mischaracterization of thos fights to state that Calzaghe struggled.

And this, IMO, transcends opinion.



My second criticism was in regard to the assertion that Calzaghe 'lost his botttle' against Lacy.

Had he pulled out, that would have been true. That he did NOT pull out, but came in brimming with confidence and totally wrecked the hapless Lacy is incontrovertible evidence that he did not 'lose his bottle.'

Thinking about doing something, threatening to do something or almost doing something are not the same as doing something. So even if what you cite Frank as saying were true, it still falls far short of Calzaghe 'losing his bottle.'

These, then, are the assertions in your original post that I termed shyte. And after all the back and forth, I still don't think they have any validity.


The other stuff we've gone over boils down mostly to opinion and persuasion.

But not the 'struggled' and 'bottle' points.


BTW, I also believe peak Ali (65-67) would get into Tyson's head and defeat him. And even if Ali never uttered a word pre-fight (almost impossible scenario !), I still think his speed and elusiveness would be too much for Tyson.

 

The one real asset Slappy has is his unusual unorthedox style. In all of boxing, no one has the falying arm, slapping high volume style of calslappy. This style is what has won fights for calslappy, and he only bearly won against Hopkins because;
1) Hopkins was well past prime and shifted to a defensive style
2) Hopkins was surprised by how unorthodox Calslappy's style really was

Hopkins fought the wrong strategy against Calzaghe in their fight. He realized this afterwards and had their been a rematch, he would have made the adjustment and very likely won by KO or lopsided decision.

 

Ok, look, we'll agree to disagree.

You're a good poster, and we've got different opinions. :good