Foreman vs Frazier revisited.

If you look at the second Frazier bout Foreman was staggering Joe with some pretty nice straight from the shoulder right hands. His jab was also working well. His left hook caused the first kd and it also hurt Joe as a counter punch during the fight. Joe was always open for a right hand left hook combination. That end hook always seemed to land as Joe bobbed up from his crouch. Ali used this to great effect in Manilla. Bonevena nearly stopped Joe with it and Foreman ...well he did what he wanted with Joe twice. I would not say Foreman was a worse fighter while with Clancy. If it were not for Clancy I don't believe Foreman would have had the success he did with his comeback in the 80s or possibly their would not have been any comeback. The relaxed Foreman from 1976 was a very similar fighter to the one that came back over 10 years later.

 

Greetings John! Just a couple of points. I do agree with virtually everything Houdini said. To paraphrase your words "Foreman, IMO, was a shot fighter after the first Ali fight."
And here is where, I think, most would disagree with me; Ali's second career in retrospect was overrated for many reasons that have already been mentioned by posters. And...regardless of the many conspiracy theories surrounding Zaire, George was on the wrong end of the stick in almost any assessment of this fight. Fact: the ropes were overly loose, no argument, absolutely none. Ali was a God in Zaire with the populace. George, outside of much, much, smaller crowds, was basically looked at as an 'uncle tom' by the indigenents. Ali had George's brain 'fried' before they even came into the ring. Why Zaire? I know the arguments, but didn't Ali dictate everything at that point? They should have fought in the Astrodome which would have taken away much of Ali's advantage. IMO, Ali greatest HW of all time (never saw his spring 67-fall 70 prime) Never gave George a rematch (after pissing blood I might be reluctant as well) and virtually all of his post FOTC bouts were orchestrated in his favor.
An Astrodome bout might (I say might) have yielded a different result.
George will forever remain as, perhaps, the most numbing, devastating HW puncher of all time.

 

John, what you're saying has often happened but IMO the loose ropes were orchestrated in Ali's favor, tho no one will ever be able to prove that. The African heat also played a part as you said.
Lastly (and I do love Ali) it was basically Champion Ali vs. Challenger Foreman when they stepped into the ring.
Foreman was champ, the Astrodome SHOULD have been the venue that night.

 

During negotiations for the fight George wanted an 18 ft ring while Ali a 20 foot ring. The compromise was a 19 foot ring. One of the reasons the ropes were loose is that all they had were ropes for a 20 ft ring. Dundee until the day he died insisted he never loosened the ropes in advance.

Many including Foreman threw out lots of false info trying to explain the loss. I remember he was live on a local radio show hosted by Art Rust back in the mid 80s. Art asked him about all the talk he initiated about him being drugged, loose ropes. He said all of that was him trying to justify the loss. He openly and seemingly honestly said that the bottom line was Ali was a big man and he was being hit by many right hands and there was just so much he could take.

 

Just like Frazier has the worst possible style to beat Foreman....Ali had the best. Just like Foreman would ko Frazier 10 out of 10...Ali would beat George 10 out of 10.

 

I want to be careful to talk about Gil only with the respect as a boxing man he deserves, and George did take improvements from him as you stated. However he didn't take the too close feet stance with him in the comeback which I'm gratefull for. In his last bout with Gil against Jimmy Young this mistake was the most notaceable as he jabbed standing still instead of the walking in with his weight behind it and his right hand as he did with Norton, etc. The first we noticed how off his mechanics were was against Dino Denis where his feet were crossing and his right uppercut was traveling sideways due to his changed foot stance.

 

Post FOTC Ali beats Foreman 10 out of 10? Ridiculous! A 68-69 Ali? Maybe so. He never gave George a rematch (probably would have been in Ulan Bator, Mongolia or some obscure location atsch) Repeating (and boring most posters ) Ali's second 'reign' in retrospect was nothing but slick orchestration regardless of his immense talent!
My weak $0.02

 

go2 2nd dis , except from de part regarding Ali's "immense talent" .
Ali vs Wladimir K wud hev bin laik Chris Byrd vs Wladimir K 4 dowz wu wont 2 imejin it .

 

Could not disagree with you more. No second title reign Ali would not be rated as a top 2 ATG. I was there during that time and Ali beating George was a huge deal. No one was thinking Ali could win and some including Cosell were thinking Ali gets seriously injured. Also his third bout with Frazier showed he was an ATG...he exhibited the toughness, determination in a fight he could have easily lost of an ATG. It's performances that this that boxing historians look for before they list a fight along with previous ATGs.

 

What Foreman says means almost nothing.
He has gone back and forth on this over the years.
In his 2007 book he repeats the claim he was doped in Zaire by his trainer. He also complains about the loose ropes and the short count.

Foreman thinks he was robbed. When he is playing the forgive-and-forget grill king, he is all sweetness and light.

 

The interview I heard was on local talk radio way before he had any grills to sell. Foreman was certainly doped...by Ali right hands.

 

There was no short count. Foreman was down for 10 seconds and the ref tolled the 10 count. This was proven back in 74.

 

Completely agree. It looked like he was completely out until he hit the mat. Then Joe gets right up and starts bouncing like he fell down while he was sparring or something. Absolutely unbelievable. Smokin' Joe's a one of a kind.

 

HOUDINI filling the board with lies as usual.

 

Dead wrong. I cannot recall a scribe at the time in any of the publications that had Ali anything but laid out on the mat as a result. The national sports writers consensus before the bout was a landslide predicted win for Foreman. I also thought Ali had little chance other then a fatigue question mark win for him.