j.frazier vs sonny liston

No, you are using the HIGHEST ones in an attempt to bolster your unsupportable claim. And Frazier weighed 209 for Foster. If you're going to cast aspersions at least get your facts straight. And that weight tells me more about how seriously Frazer took Foster (a notorious failure at HW) than anything else.

This is much more telling:


vs. Ellis- 205

vs. Bonavena 2- 203

vs. Mathis- 204/half

vs. Ramos- 203/half

vs. Quarry- 203/half

vs. Ali- 205/half

All fights Frazier had at his peak (1968-1971). Average weight? About 204. Only in two fights during that period did Joe weigh over 205. Those being versus a light-heavy who had little to threaten him with, and against the immortal Marion Connor, who had even less.

Facts are facts. Even the "trash" ones.

 

Close call for me.

In 1967, I don't think Joe was ready yet, and may not have been until after Mathis, very possibly Bonavena II. Ramos caught him with an uppercut I wouldn't like to see Liston land on him.

Sonny hadn't gone back far enough at the time of Elmer Rush.

Joe would really need to hustle underneath that jab, and work a lot harder than Liston for the win. As of 1967, he'd gone into the tenth round for Bonavena I, Machen and George Johnson. Sonny had a quartet of seventh round stoppages during the late 1960s.

Frazier-Mathis was close for six rounds. Even at the end, referee Mercante had it even at five up. Liston was using his jab to pitch shutouts at this stage, and it would be interesting to know how many completed rounds he lost of the 69 three minute stanzas he boxed through after Lewiston. Sonny stopped Scrap Iron two years after Joe couldn't. Liston would have him outweighed by 15 to 20 pounds at this stage.

Frazier-Chuvalo needs to be looked at very closely before one asks if Joe could have moved successfully like that on Liston, because I suspect Sonny would be standing his ground here like Chuvalo did.

 

Good points. Scrap Iron Johnson claimed in an old Ring Mag interview that Sonny hit him harder than either Joe Frazier or young George Foreman. As evidenced by the fact that he was the only one to stop Johnson.

Sonny could always jab and he could still punch in `67 and always through the end of his career. His punch resistance may not have been the same if Frazier could get him into the mid late rounds though.

 

joe frazier was green when he faced oscar bonavena and he was a bit green when he faced quarry in 1969, frazier was in his absolute peak in 70-71, my point is that he was in his best shape against foster and he was weighing 209(210 pounds, it is the same), funny because liston fought at 208 in tons of his prime fights, liston would not have any advantage in weight , and frazier was shorter, so he was more compact.

 

Prime Frazier was 204 - 205 ...

This is an interesting match up because Liston would have taken it very seriously based on what an upset over a young Frazier could mean ... prime for prime it is a big win for Sonny was Joe was made for him .. the 67 version was every bit 38 if not 40 so over ten rounds it's obviously two fights .. If Sonny tags Joe early like Bonavena did I think Sonny, still a much harder hitter, might do some damage ... otherwise, unless Liston keeps him at the end of the jab Joe wins a decision or pulls a Marciano / Louis ..

 

Right, but we're discussing the two of them squaring off in 1967 when Joe was still green, and around 203-204, while Sonny was entering combat weighing from 219 to 223.

I don't believe Frazier was green anymore after the championship distance experience of Bonavena II. That's why I personally believe his absolute peak was for the three bouts he had between Bonavena II and Bob Foster [because Joe busted his ankle in an accident after Ellis I]. So for me, Ziggy, JQ I and Ellis I represent his absolute peak, although he was obviously tremendous for BF and the FOTC. [Certainly, this can be described as nitpicking though.]

 

What makes you feel Frazier was "green" in 1969? I see no evidence of that. Guy was a seasoned pro by then. AND a world heavyweight titlist who was regularly defending his title.

You're wrong. 1970-71? You're basically paring down his prime to just 3 fights (again, to try and support your unsupportable position).

OK, let's do that then. Joe had 3 fights, two against top contenders (Ellis, Ali), one against a light-heavy who was NOT a ranking heavyweight (Foster).

Against Ali and Ellis he weighed 205 and 205/half. Against Foster, whom he obviously didn't train as hard for, he came in at 209. Unless you somehow feel that he would train as hard for a non-ranking light-heavy as he would for two of the biggest threats to his own position in the division? Either way, Frazier's absolute best weight, going by your limited timeline, was about 205.

He was in his absolute best shape for Ali and Ellis, not Foster.

No, it is NOT the same. 209 is 209 and 210 is 210. Especially if you're going to be so arrogant as to be calling other people's facts and opinions "trash". Clean up your own living room before you start complaining that mine is dirty.

No he didn't. There was never a fight in which Sonny Liston weighed 208. Not one. List your sources please. I need to see these "tons" of prime fights in which he weighed 208. None exist.

 

Most boxing historians (you know, those annoying fellows who bother to get their facts straight) consider Sonny Liston's prime to be around 1959-1961 (or '62). Liston's average weight was about 212. That's heavier than Frazier at his best.

Sonny's lowest weight during that period was 209/half.

Sonny's highest weight during that period was 219/half.

Frazier's highest weight during his (according to Heavy-Hands) prime? 209

That's LESS than Liston's LOWEST prime weight.


Now excuse me while I go take out my "trash".