Dempsey's greatness.

H, save your breath. Even though you show what the prior heavyweight did while champions, were no better than what Dempsey did in defending their title it is only Jack Dempsey who get's all the flack today MAINLY on ESB.
These holier than thou critics hate Dempsey so virulently, that he is
singled out today by some critics on ESB. They who are so noble that they don't realize that we are all 'Products" of our times, yes our dad's and grandpaws...So was Dempsey, and many others of his less informed times...I when a boy saw how people of my generation thought socially and
It hurt me to hear the injustice of their comments, but they were products of THEIR parents and they evolved , thankfully...I always fought for the underdog when he was wronged, and today I defend a beloved fighter who behaved like a modest gentleman til the day he died in 1983, about the same time as my dad...Cheers H...

 

He falls short in not meeting the best two challengers to this throne.

Corbett fought Fitz. Fitz fought Jeff. Jeff fought everyone and retired just before Johnson became the overwhelming contender. Burns finally had the balls to fight Johnson. Johnson had already beaten most of the better contenders and fought Willard. Willard finally took on Dempsey after the war.

Team Dempsey got the result they wanted in avoiding Wills and chose Greb victims to fight rather than Greb himself.

 

S, I an convinced that if Dempsey who signed to fight Wills DID fight Harry and kod as the odds showed Wills, you would still pick him apart today. I am also convinced that if Dempsey took on and kod my favorite middleweight Harry Greb, you and other critics of Dempsey would spout why did Dempsey pick on a MW to fight ?. Why did not Joe Louis give a "money shot" to worthy black contenders of his time, who were a heck of a lot better than a Paycheck, Jack Roper, Harry Thomas, Al McCoy ? Why did not a Ray Robinson not give a money bout to deserving black fighters as Holman Williams, Cocoa kid, a Charley Burley ? These guys were deserving of a bout with Robinson as they were
deprived by the establishment, but SRR had it in his power to give these guys a shot at more money than they ever made. Why not ? I recall hearing about these deserving black avoided fighters. But why ONLY is Dempsey the target on ESB by some ???

 

If you are going to give people credit for fighting dangerous opponents and loosing, then Dempsey did at least fight Tunney who ultimately took Harry Grebs place as a contender.

He also fought the guy who had replaced Harry Wills, in Jack Sharkey.

 

Corbett, great fighter for his day, upset John L to win the title, but most people today dont ranked Corbett up there in the top 5 like most do Dempsey though. I sure if people sing how great Corbett is, they will tear his record apart, failed to give Jackson a rematch in the form of a title shot, inactive, and color bar.

Fitz gets a break more for his pound for pound status though. I dont think most people today put him in the top ten heavyweights, but he does make a lot of pound for pound list. Also he did fight Jack Johnson in the end. great fighter.

Jeffries was pretty active, no comment on him, he did beat fight the best out there outside of Johnson, I think the reason they dont bring him up is he did lose to Johnson in the end.

Burns, active, short rein, again no one ranks him the best of the best, but he did face the best fighter of his day, though he did not come out on top.

Willard wins the title vs Johnson, defends against Moran, and just sets on his butt until Dempsey. No one ranks Willard on the highs of Dempsey.

Its more of ranking Dempsey over the likes of Marciano or Louis who pretty much clean out there eras than not being a great fighter. Put him in the top ten imo, but lets not put him over Louis, Ali, Marciano, Lewis, or even Johnson imo.

 

People get old, and 7 plus years is a long time to wait for a title shot, sooner or later some one like Jack Sharkey was waiting to make a name for himself. Amazing the same year Wills finally went down, Dempsey lost the title. Even though the guys mention lost, at least they took them on for the most part.

 

Firpo vs Wills/Dempsey is more of a style thing. Though Wills was a great fighter he is not the puncher Dempsey was, and should I hope not, be expected to take Firpo out in 2 rounds in the same fashion.

Bob Foster lasted longer vs Ali, than he did vs Fraizer, but no one is going to argue that Fraizer is greatner than Ali, because they did have 3 great clashs. Styles make fights and most of often, 2 brawlers going at it is not going to last long.

 

Yes Wills got older, but so did Dempsey.

He might have been better off fighting the older Wills and avoiding Tunney.

He set himself up for the aditional trauma of fighting Sharkey!

Somtimes it is easier to do the right thing.

 

After nibbling at an assortment of Greb' victims for 7 years.

Well, forgive me. I suppose he wasn't merely waiting around for Wills to get old then... seeing as Wills had been the best challenger arguably since BEFORE Dempsey won the title.

 

The point is everyone who writes so negatively and historically incorrect concerning Dempsey states he was not active as champion. He was just as active as any previous champion aside from Burns and the most active until Louis. You must consider the era and as mentioned Dempsey like most all popular champions before him took his title on the road. Others went to vaudeville or the theatre since these were the top entertainment venues of those times. Dempsey went to silent movies for the same reasons. With all this he still defended his title as often as most anyone from Sullivan to Louis....pretty impressive.

 

Its not so much being in active, most champs in Dempsey's day spend years out of the ring like Corbett or Johnson, but they also fought the best of there day, Corbett pre championship did face Peter Jackson in perhaps one of the greatness fights ever, and than won the title off of Johnson. Corbett's mark is he failed to give Jackson a rematch.

Johnson clean out the best of the black fighters before he won the title, I really saw no one standing out once Johnson won the first FOTC on July 4 1910 of white vs black. McVey, Langford ete, were all beaten by Johnson by than, some more than once.

Dempsey's inactive is not want really lowers him imo. In the 7 years as champ, he failed to meet his number 1 contender. Great fighter, I have nothing against Dempsey, I even name my screen named after him, but if I am doing a historic ranking system, I would first determind what did the guy do in his era.

Lewis, fought every one, one the title off of Shannon, beat Holyfiled who at the time was consider the best after the Tyson fights, kos Tyson, and retires after beating VK who was the number 1 guy. Impressive.

Ali, Beats champs Foreman, Fraizer, Liston, Patterson, L Spinks, and perhaps Norton. Beat every one there was, until age got to him.

Marciano, earn number 1 ranked over Layne, Matthews Louis ete, beats Walcott for title, wins over Walcott, Charles and Moore and retire. Charles and the great Archie Moore were both ranked number 1 of title fight. Moore pretty much clean out divsion for title shot. Good win.

Dempsey, wins title off of Willard, which is not too bad, Willard was champ though inactive, in a impressive fashion, defends title 3 times, first million $ gate in one of em, than stays away for 2 years, comes back and beats Firpo(Who got the shot over a way past it Willard) And great lightheayvweight Gibbions, other 3 years inactive and comes back to lose to Tunney and beats Sharkey in a close contest. But in that 7 year run, Wills was clearly the number 1 guy until he lost to Sharkey, which should hurt Dempsey when we ranked him with others.

I say Dempsey is top ten, but outside of the top 5 imo. the top 5 should be the best of the best in there era when little arugement imo.

 

Top 10 is certainly fair.

Ali not giving Foreman a rematch is a far more black mark than Dempsey not fighting Wills.

The public and Foreman wanted the bout. Nothing prevented the bout from happening. Ali stated many times he would fight Foreman but instead he fights Wepner, Coopman, Dunn and Young.

Dempsey had the racial bias of the early 20th century to overcome and the stigma of Jack Johnson. He ignored this and tried to make the fight happen and this can be seen in private letters he wrote at that time....he actively tried to make the bout happen. He stated into his old age that he wanted the fight to occur and the promoters would not allow the fight to happen. There is not much more any fighter could do to make a fight happen.

As mentioned Dempsey was as active as any champion aside from Burns until Louis.

Miske was a great fighter...check out his record. He koed many top notchers before and after he lost to Dempsey. He is called an uncrowned champion.

Gibbons was a big right hand puncher and excellent defensively and a top contender. Dempsey outboxed the boxer and won a one sided decision. Tunney called it Dempseys greatest win.

Brennan was another leading contender. In a fight he was losing Dempsey came back to ko his opponent. Sign of true greatness ....coming back to win when losing.

Carpentier was well known world wide as one of the best. Like many other lt heavy champions Georges got his title shot. Aside from a pair of right hands that rocked Dempsey it was a one sided thrashing. Watch Dempseys best combination...right to the heart and left hook to the chin that koed Carp.

Firpo...tremendous right hand puncher and as courageous as they come. This was a highly anticipated bout. Watch the KD prior to the KO....you see why Dempsey was called great..a weave, a feint, 6 inch right to the body followed by a 6 inch left hook to the jaw both thrown textbook dropping Firpo to the canvas. Add to this the killer body attack...Dempsey shifts his body left and right throwing short body blows which knocked Firpo down again and again.

Another point is Dempsey came an eyelash away from not only knocking out no 2 contender Sharkey with one punch but also champion Tunney again with one punch (that hook was the blow that did all the damage). Sit back and think about that for a minute.

 

The long count was not started by one punch, but 6 left right combos on Tunney's chin that hurt and down him. If Tunney could have beaten it or not been debated since it happen lol. I think Tunney would have beaten it, but not so sure he could have gotten away. The extra time gave Tunney time to clear his head before he got up.

 

Dempsey was great.

 

Nat Fleischer not only changed his opinion all the time he often did it in the same book ... I have read his book on Dempsey and in one chapter calls him the best ever and in another picks Coprbett over him by decision and Fitz to KO him .. in the same book..