The similarities in the fighters I think are overrated.

Jerry Quarry- Disagree- I guess he gets quite a bit of attention on this forum from time to time, but I am not sure that equates to being over rated...perhaps over discussed? I don't see any (or very many) who label as a top 30 ATG HW, and would imagine most have him in the 50 type of range if at all (who really has the time to do that type of list). To me most rate him about right although I guess big proponents of the 70's might rate him slightly higher than others?

Sonny Liston- Not Sure- I guess there are those who might call him a top 5 ATG (and/or a H2H monster), most seem to have him borderline top 10 on one side of the other. I rate him about 13 at last glance.....Maybe H2H he could be overrated, but again he seems to even out to just about right in my estimation.

Monzon- Don't see this at all- I don't particularly enjoy his style although I appreciate his skill level...To me he is a top MW lock and while I don't call him #1 that certainly seems arguable to me as well.

Duran- perhaps slightly- I believe he is a top 3 lock @ LW and has a number of other accomplishments throughout his career at a variety of unprimed weight classes. I don't rate him a top 10 ATG as it seems most do, but I have him top 15, so I might go with a slight overrate.

Not sure if there is any connection between these 4 (maybe just their fans?)...But I find certain guys overrated myself that others would likely disagree with.

 

Would love to know which guys you find overrated, and if you don't mind, what's your top 15 HW ATG?

 

You seem overly focussed on reputation and not enough on the difficulty of longevity. It's hard defending a world title for more than five years.

I've seen you go on record as saying "Monzon beat a lot of bums." He cleaned out his division and reigned for eternity. Are you saying that for seven years -- the very best middleweight contenders in the world were all just no good?

It is impossible. And if it was really so, the welterweight champ could have come up and taken the crown. That's what you do when there's a "soft" champ in a weight division above you.

 

Perhaps you don't like people who beat up on Floyd.
Best vintage Duran is only at lightweight.
No one is judged for disliking Carlos Monzon.

 

Is Quarry overated? Not sure. How is he rated? Most find him to be a good contender in a very tough era who also ran into some hard luck. With that said he`s got some quality wins that most heavyweights would love to have on their record.

Duran? the arguement that Duran went 1-5 against his most famous opponents doesnt hold water. All those fights were well above his prime weight class. He started at Featherweight and had two quality wins before he ever won the World Title. Marcel, Kobayashi. Then he defends his title 12 times over a 6 year stretch Knocking out 11 of them. Then moves up and beats Carlos Palomino and Ray Leonard in dominating fashion.

Anything he did after 1980 he was just cementing his legend. The wins over Pipino Cuevas, Davey Moore and Iran Barkley were icing on the cake.

Liston is rightfully ranked as one of the greats. I dont see anyone with him in their top 3. That would be overating him. He did clean out the heavyweight division while Floyd Patterson was avoiding the top contenders. Patterson was Champ, Liston cleaned out the division. Cant overlook that.

 

I don't value his career that much and frankly, including him in a top 10 HWs of all-time would be overrating him, in my opinion. I don't value him as a H2H beast either. For smaller fighters coming before his own era, sure, he should be viewed as a possible nightmare in fantasy match-ups, but nothing more than that.

 

I disagree with a couple things there, in that you seem to be drinking from the same well as those who will point out only Duran's highs while ignoring his many lows. It's all a part of a sum, to be considered equally if we're going to get a true judgement.

And at the end of the day Liston just doesn't have the scalps on his resume to compete as an ATG. Mostly image at work there, but he was good at that.

 

Not sure I feel like beating up on any boxers today, so I might comeback and do an overrated list later.

I have posted my top 25 multiple times and while I change it from time to time it largely stays the same, I break it down more by tiers than absolute rankings (For example I could fluctuate on 3-5, but find them a small step above 6-9 who can also vary in the way I arrange) :

01 Joe Louis
02 Muhammad Ali

03 Larry Holmes
04 George Foreman
05 Lennox Lewis

06 Rocky Marciano
07 Joe Frazier
08 Evander Holyfield
09 Mike Tyson

10 Jack Johnson
11 Jim Jeffries
12 Wlad Klit
13 Jack Dempsey
14 Sonny Liston

15 Max Schmelling
16 Ezzard Charles
17 Jersey Joe Walcott
18 Riddick Bowe
19 Vitali Klit

20 Harry Wills

 

Hmm... No Patterson. Interesting.

 

Regarding Jerry Quarry, I think JQ victims Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers are very well remembered contenders today. Jerry had a better resume of wins though. He cleanly defeated three of the four premier heavyweight sluggers of the early 1970s Lyle [something Bonavena couldn't duplicate, and a result which kinda ruined a "60 Minutes" human interest profile of Ron], Shavers and Mac Foster, impressively enough that Foreman purposely avoided him so George wouldn't be the fourth power punching victim on that list. Back in the day, Foreman would speak hesitantly and evasively when asked after easy wins about taking on Jerry, a fact Big George openly admits today. Liston was the only big bomber of the late 1960s who was enthusiastic about taking JQ on, but a water skiing accident of Jerry's scuttled that plan. [Not that the Belter was any kind of wimp. He took on Ellis with a broken back.]

He decked and virtually whitewashed the best version of Buster Mathis to ever set foot in the ring, and took Thad Spencer to school after Thad had beaten a much better version of Terrell than the one Ali dominated. He completely ruined Jack Bodell with the definitive one punch knockout of his career. [He did have a few of those, and they could come from either hand.]

Foreman sparred with Jerry early on, and knew what peak JQ was all about. Credit George with giving Jerry a lot of posthumous mileage today. Frazier also spoke respectfully of him. If Jerry had lost to Mac Foster, then it would have been Mac, not Bob Foster, who Frazier would have come back from his broken ankle against. Mac was easily the hardest punching contender during Smoke's 1969-1970 peak.

 

LOL! he would be 21...on the same tier as Wills...just didn't feel like going any farther today.

 

I agree LIston is overrrated and I don't have him in my top 10 all time... Even h2h people overrate him like crazy. He simply wasn't THAT good.

 

I don't see Sonny decisioning the Jimmy Young who beat Foreman. Jimmy was faster with his double jab, and tough enough, mobile enough, and elusive enough defensively to successfully slip Liston's slower jab in the process. He couldn't hurt Sonny, but he'd sure frustrate the hell out of him.

 

Any fighter that fights as much as Duran did is going to have some loses or lows as you put it. Sugar Ray Robinson lost fights. I agree you take the whole and in Duran`s case the whole is pretty damn impressive.

If you ranked Roberto Duran in the top 5 alltime P4P I thinik that is overating him a tad. Top 10 yes. Some fans have him #1 P4P alltime. I dont agree with that but he`s certainly top 10.