Norton Vs Frazier..2 of the best left hooks at that time, but does Joe find a way!?

Bottom line, I've never thought Kenny belonged in he ring with Joe, not if he didn't want to get battered and ko'd anyways.

 

Oh I agree 100%. Thats why I said even with a broken hand Id favor him. Ive got footage of them sparring and all of their available films. To me Frazier is head and shoulders above Norton. But then Ive always thought Norton is incredibly overrated based on his ability to give Ali fits. I chalk that up to a style issue more than Norton truly being on that level. A lot fighters have a hoodoo opponent that isnt really that good but gives them problems for some reason.

 

That's what I was referring to. Joe's 1964 finals victory in Tokyo was achieved with a broken left thumb which he kept secret from everybody [lest he be forced to concede his Olympic bid as amateur rival Mathis earlier was]. To decision Hans Huber for the Gold, he threw more right hands than usual, and prevailed in a 3-2 SD.

 

Ali himself was brilliant ever after at building up the fact Ken broke his jaw, giving Norton a cachet he otherwise may never have acquired. Most people in Ali's situation would have tried diluting that injury by pointing out that a neglected impacted wisdom tooth on the left side of Ali's jaw made him vulnerable to such a fracture.

What if Ali had taken care of his dental needs in a timely manner, so that Ken was never able to inflict such an injury? Ali was actually pretty competitive even after sustaining that second round break, and I think an SD was a decent reflection of how well Muhammad performed through the remaining 10 rounds. But Norton's self confidence soared because of that freak occurrence.

If Ken had never broken Ali's jaw, he still never would have been an easy opponent for Muhammad to deal with, but his historical reputation largely hinges on Ali crediting him with inflicting that injury, instead of using his impacted wisdom tooth as an excuse to dilute Norton's win. Muhammad was renowned for psyching opponents out, but he also helped elevate guys like Norton and Frazier by psyching them UP, to his own physical detriment, but also to the reputations and profitability of both they and himself.

Take Ali out of the 1970s, then there wouldn't likely be many threads comparing Frazier with Norton. I'm among those who believes 1969-1971 Smoke was a top five HW ATG. I think Ken would be remembered fondly as a 1970s HW contender like JQ, Lyle, Shavers and Young, but he wouldn't be a candidate for Canastota, because of his difficulties with huge sluggers. Take away his trilogy with Ali, then he doesn't gain entry into the IBHOF at all, let alone as early as 1992.

 

Yes, in '64 as a fill-in for the injured Buster Mathis. Mathis beat Frazier to make the Olympic team... Frazier beat his ass as a pro though.