Would jack johnson style work today

Boxing was legal during Johnson's heyday. I do think the 20's and to some extent the 30's saw a marked increase in skills, but there have always been earlier anomalies. men who were gifted beyond the reach of their contemporaries
I would put Gans, Johnson, Griffo, Dixon in this class. The stance of kick boxing and MMA is toally different to boxing thats why they rarely get the leverage and power behind their punches to cause a stoppage .
In Thailand I've seen men kod senseless with backspin foot blows, and elbow reverse shots , but never from a punch. MMA men are tough SOB's with stamina and condition , but they mostly throw arm punches.

Ground and pound causing most abbreviated endings, I don't see much of a correlation between those sports and boxing to be honest.

 

Interesting. I'm not all in with MMA but certainly respect those guys and do follow it a bit. Lesnar was not just a good wrestler, he was NCAA heavy champ and the runner up the year before. He was a pretty damn good wrestler. Also, gym stories regarding the guy are pretty epic. He was a specimen. You note his record but it requires explanation. Mir was a veteran at his peak when he stopped a very green Lesnar. He was near death's door a couple times towards the end of his short MMA career. You can give Cain credit for his win, but after that Brock was a shadow of his former self.

Regarding Fedor, he didn't really start losing until he was 35. I wouldn't say it was a case of the sport catching up to him so much as age catching up. And again, I wouldn't judge the book by the cover. He didn't pass the eye test but like a Marciano he used and enforced his strengths in the ring while largely concealing his weaknesses.

Then again, you know more than I on these matters. Interesting to get your insight.

 

I doubt that. I hardly ever watch mma. Boxing is just so much more entertaining. I've managed to pick up a few tidbits from reading articles and watching a couple of fights, but mostly the sport bores me, because of the slowness of the wrestling and the sloppiness of the striking. But any bloodsport is better than ball games.

I do find it interesting though that the mma fans who closely follow their sport all agree that techniques have been improving throughout it's short twenty year history. In part, they are forced to do so based on the clarity of the film record, and the relative lack of nostalgic old-timer fans.

One of the reason's why I knock on Brock is because of how thin his resume is. He only has a career of 8 whole fights. Most mma fighter's records are underwhelming. Fedor has 40 fights. Anderson Silva has 38. Georges St Pierre has 26. These are their p4p legends? Chuck Lidell goes 21-8 and is considered one of the best fighters of all time? Rickson Gracie has a rep for being nearly invincible and he only fought 11 matches? I hate how high their accolades are for how little they fight, and how mediocre their opposition tends to be when they do. They don't even fight the whole world, since their competition is mostly limited to the United States, Canada, and Brazil. Their success is in part predicated on a lack of competition like all those semi-pro white athletes in baseball before the leagues were integrated.

And while I might downplay Fedor and Brock's accomplishments, they were still relatively recent. Fedor retired last year and Brock started fighting in 2007. Their techniques are definitely better than when the game started in 1993. That's a gulf of 14+ years of evolution. Things should look much better and possibly be approaching their zenith in a further 14 years or so. They don't look bad yet, but they don't look shiny and new. They're like one of the first iPhones but not one of the first cell phones.

 

Did Johnson tell him to run away? Johnson wanted to fight Jeffries from back in 1903 and in 1904 a promoter fronted, Jeffries ran away for 7 years and when he was forced to fight decided to retire than lose.
In 1904, October 19

"Manager McCarey of the Century Athletic Club announced that he would offer a $15,000 guarantee for a match between Jeffries and Johnson"

And jeffries ran into retirement. In fact I'll type out the whole article because its out of print and hard to find

San Francisco Call, Volume 96, Number 141, 19 October 1904

And what did Jeffries do after being offered $15,000 which was a fortune back then, never figh again until he blew all his money. Clearly not Johnson's fault. Hell Johnson was already the colored champion and given no non colored champion would fight him, it is fair to say that was the true championship belt. Jeffries had only 20 some odd fights. He never had a lost until Johnson. Farming is hard work not easy work it keeps one physically active.

Stanley Ketchell was KO in 12, Jeffries was tkoed in 15. Ketchell should have knocked himself out if he didn't want to embarass the white race

What does this article show, Johnson beat up guys who where way bigger than him and destroyed them with ease. Denver Ed Martin was a giant at 6'7 1/2 they called him the colorado giant. The writer makes it clear Johnson beat men far bigger and heavier than himself with ease.

If Jeffries was to throw the fight then why did he fight for 15 rounds? He could have been ko in 12 like Ketchell? Jeffries knew he'd never beat Johnson, he retired right when the biggest fight of his career was about to happen for obvious reasons. The outcome would be no different. Not Johnson's fault Jeffries ducked him for 6 years when Johnson came up with the money for the fight.

agreed.

 

I can't comment on the other martial arts which I know nothing about or very little.
I can say boxing skills has declined since the 90s and 80s not increased.

Firstly the rules have seen a watering down over time, it has become EASIER to compete in boxing not harder over time. In jack Johnson day people had no gum guard, getting hit flush to the chin was enough to knock a man out clean and knock his teeth out too. People criticisize jack johnson chin, but I wonder how good ali, louis, tyson, wlad and vitali and lennox would take shots without a gum guard and an opponent wearing a glove almost a 3rd of what it weighs today. Norton broke Ali's jaw, what do you think happens with gum guard?

We have less rounds, more protection, more rules that balance out the game, standing 8 count, neutral corners, nice soft padded ropes etc.

I wouldnt compare bare knuckle boxers to post 1893 boxers different eras.

Yes.

Untrue. Boxing's problem is not infrastructure it is athletes. Today you have more fat lazy heavyweights and other weights than any other time in history. The difficulty in boxing is getting out your bed to go run in the morning every day then training. Boxing in Johnson's day went 45- unlimited rounds. You had to be in far better condition to fight back then. Now guys are huffing and puffing after 4-5 rounds.

I have yet to see the greatness of modern styles. The 3 best modern fighters are holyfield, tyson and lennox. Holyfield is pretty good. Tyson was great for 2 years then fell off. And lennox used his size and big punch to beat opponents who were too fat to dance him. Most sane boxing analyst do not argue lennox or holyfield or tyson were the greatest boxers ever. So that argument is not going to fly. Whereas sane mma people might argue that some very recent fighters like silva are the best mma fighters. The best 3 fighters in boxing are generally considered to be a guy born when Hitler was still in power, another born when Russia was still ruled by a Tsar and the other born right after the civil war. This occurs in no other sane sport. You do not see people in car racing or basketball looking of footage of people who played before 1900.

People have more distractions today. Jack Johnson was locked in a prison cell with joe choyninski and they fought and sparred for 23 days straight. Guys in prison today are watching tv and playing video games and are on cell phones.

People today are easily distracted. they don't have the time to run 10 miles a day. Half the time jack johnson spars it is outside infront of audiences and crowds not even in rings. You do not need advanced equipment to be a great boxer, you need will power and detemrination. If when you get $3 million you are going to vegas for a month (a place that hardly meant anything in johnson's time) you will not become great.

 

Ive never been in gyms with the elites who don't train as written about above, but they club and show fighters today are on the road miles a day just as they were when I fought, I see nothing having changed for us ham and eggers. They gyms I still visit haven't changed, theres nothing new being used and most can be seen in their training doing the hard things Nat Fleisher wrote in his training for boxing books in the thirties, the things he learned watching the Greb's, the Dempsey's, and yes Jack Johnson. Nothing has been added to the repitore found in How to Box from the U of Minnesota from those days or the expertise of each particular put to perfection by the likes of Louis, Pep and others. The modern boxing of today eludes the art of feinting and much of the combination punching afforded the accepted boxing stance and footwork begun in the early 1900's. Its not a progression we've seen or additions but a negligance of whats been long apart of boxing skills and knowledge.
PS Many commentators on boxing history today include Lenox and Evander in their top ten heavies with Tyson in the next five.

 

If anybody says Randleman wasn't a superb athlete they need to be banned from this site on a forever. He was one of the top collegiate wrestlers of all time and a great athlete

 

33 fights and 17 victories. He must have been a god.

 

You are not reading my posts very well.

I am not discrediting Johnson; I am discrediting Jeffries. He just did not prove himself to be a good fighter after 5 years off, and in fact, evidence suggests he knew he was not his former self, not even close to it.

In regards to your contention that Jeffries ran from Johnson from 1903 onward, I am not sure I agree with that. His performance in 1905 against Hart set him back quite a bit. Most commentators agreed that neither Hart nor Johnson were anywhere near Jeffries' class.

 

Janitor.

 

Both Jeffries and Johnson were all time great fighters. There is no question the Jeff avoided title fights with black fighters. He certainly had no issue fighting them prior to winning the championship. In fact Fleischer in his book 50 years at ringside wrote....the real reason Jeff retired was the rise of the great black hwts ...Johnson being head and shoulder above all others. I do not believe that Jeff was in any was afraid to fight Johnson or any man. It was the racist times and the ingrained thought that no black man can be given the chance to win the worlds hwt title....a title which implies that man is the master of all men. The mindset of those times is so foreign to ours we can only speculate what was going on in the minds of the people who controlled boxing.

 

I think Johnson would do well in the modern era but I can't help but wonder how he would fare against a big HW with a hard consistent jab and a right hand behind it ala Holmes, Ali, Holyfield et al. The films of Johnson really don't help as his opponents didn't or don"t seem to possess those abilities. Burns didn't throw a jab or any meaningful combos. He basically stalked and threw a punch here and there plus he was a lot smaller than Johnson. The only film of Jack that shows him against a young big opponent of any merit is Frank Moran and he fought similar to Burns...Hands extended, stalk and swing. No snapping jab from the outside followed by a fast right hand. Could Johnson deal with the type of offensive arsenal that fighters like Ali or holmes would display? Could he parry 2 or 3 hard fast jabs and block or evade the right that was sure to follow? Could he deal with a big fast HW that moved well and threw combinations? I think he had the physical attributes that would allow him to but I think he would have to tweak his style a bit to deal with that type of opponent. No smiling to the crowd while cradling Ali in his arms. He would have to resign himself to the fact that he would have to turn it up a notch or two and match an Ali or a Holmes punch for punch while dealing with ATG jabs. Again I think he could as he obviously had the talent but it would be a different ballgame for L'il Artha.

 

Johnson had a wonderful jab. You can see it in every bout but check out his bout with Flynn. A jab by old timers standpoint was not a flick that you see today...it could be a devastating blow that could lead to a KO.

 

You sure he'd have to jab people to knock them out today? You sure he couldn't just breathe on them?

 

Jack Johnson is a heavyweight version of Bernard Hopkins. What do you think?