Having read a whole book about 'The fight' and Foreman's own book, does anyone have views on potential skullduggery in this fight? At no point am i trying to crab Ali,( how could you !) but Foreman reckoned he didnt trust his trainer Dick Sadler...also this was Sadlers last fight of his contract with George (Sadler then appeared in Ali's corner for his next 3 fights) which strikes me as a bit odd....Foremans tactics in Zaire were so poor yet he got no good advice from his corner except carry on with what you are doing.....he ran out of gas so so quick...and just for good measure he did actually beat the count..he was up at nine...let me re-stress this is NOT a poke at Ali but would be interested in views on what i always have found a great but somewhat strange fight.
Just look with your own eyes and don't get distracted by what's "around" the fight. The event is available for meticulous perusal, and nothing that happens on there seems out of place. Foreman, with all his crushing might, jumped on Ali like a man possessed. He tried short jolts, crunking roundhouses to the body, pushing, pulling, chasing, bullying. His performance here is underrated. I think he fought the best fight he could have. Ali didn't fold. Not even close. Fighters inside that ring more than anyone else know what's going on. His attack being unsuccessful and Ali's taunts cracked George mentally. In the right mindset, he could have gone on for three more rounds, five more rounds, but running a gauntlet of emotion and exhaustion he felt it wouldn't make a difference. He was right. He was spent, and he threw in the towel himself. Nothing that went on before or around the fight would have led to a different outcome. Give Foreman 25% more gas, what would it do? Ali will last through any barrage of body shots, and the best chance to seperate him from his senses was round 1, and it got slimmer ever since.
Foreman seemed to tire very quickly, and his punches became faint pushes within a few rounds. He looked like he was on tranquilizers. Maybe he just punched himself out. He looked like an amateur.
I think what's forgotten is the fact that Foreman had only fought past the seventh round 5 times before the Ali fight. He was now in pretty unfamiliar territory fighting a guy who he wasn't able to hurt. Yes, he punched himself out but mentally, he was shattered.
Nothing could have turned that night into a victory for George. Ali was in great shape, was hitting hard for the first time in years and could take a punch like no other. Ali just waited out the storm all the while landing with his hardest punch....right hands. Also George did not throw in any towel....he was knocked out for the 10 count. He was still trying to land that ko blow and did land at least one hard right hand earlier in the eighth round. It's a complete fallacy that Foreman beat the count. The announcers at ringside were counting two counts behind the actual count so it looks that way. Also the amount of time George was on the canvas was timed on nationwide tv a few weeks after the fight took place.....indeed George was down 10 seconds.
Also, it's a myth that Foreman beat the count. If you time it he was down for about 11 seconds. Edit: as Houdini just said. Oh well
4d rizons det u menshend end aders it woz a NC rili , e walkover 4 Ali : (for the reasons that you mentioned and others it was a NC really , a walkover for Ali) http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=211663 in adishen , Ali iz e fraud : (In addition , Ali is a fraud) http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=347452
Ali was close to his fighting weight well before Foreman was, and Muhammad was peaking at the perfect time. He trained like hell for Norton II and Frazier II, managing to get down to his optimal 1960s weight of 212. Those bouts also helped prepare him for George's body attack. While Foreman suffered from a lack of recent competitive rounds, Ali had gone the 12 round limit in his previous five bouts. Replace Dick Sadler with Panama Lewis and Eddie Futch, there's still no way George would have lasted the distance, let alone win. He himself was a beaten man after round five, and Muhammad's taunt, "Is that all you've got?" immediately following the hardest right hand concluding the hardest combination Foreman ever threw. [This is according to George himself, and you can see him momentarily stand back to watch Ali fall, only to deflate at his opponent's bravado.] The gulf in hand speed was obscene. Muhammad's right hands off the LOOSE ropes were lightning bolts. What I really noticed missing from George's arsenal was the hard jab he snapped Chuvalo's head back with repeatedly in 1970. He was pawing with it in Kinshasa. It had been by far the best straight punch he had, and it was gone. Futch identified Norton's jab as the key punch for throwing Ali off his rhythm. Frazier's hand speed, head movement, and timing, was crucial in the FOTC. No, Foreman didn't look right in the FOTC, but even if he was coming off a 15 round decision over Norton in Caracas, any version of him was likely to looked drugged against any prime version of Ali. Three years later, Shavers repeatedly hit a now fading Muhammad with the same kind of flush rights to the head George repeatedly failed to connect with, yet was still foundering at the end with far better recent competitive preparation for Ali than Foreman obtained. [Earnie went into the tenth round twice in 1976.] Could George indeed have been drug impaired by Sadler? Possibly. Would it have made a difference in the final result if he was drug enhanced by Panama Lewis? Absolutely not! Trying to blind Ali's eyes with Monsil's Solution ten years earlier certainly didn't save the title for Liston. Nor would Muhammad's proper use of Thyrolar as prescribed have later enabled him to regain the title from Holmes [although I think Ali would definitely go the distance with Larry in a one sided loss, much as Louis did against Charles.] Years later, Archie Moore cited Muhammad's neck yanking tactic in the clinches as the key factor in wearing George down to the point where Foreman was weakened enough to be knocked out. It might be noteworthy here to mention that the Mongoose would later be the original trainer for George's comeback, for which Foreman incorporated Moore's cross armed defense into his approach. [During his first career, George barely defended himself at all.] Archie has been blamed as a co-culprit with Sadler for Kinshasa, but Foreman certainly demonstrated his trust in Moore during his comeback. Dirty tactics were integral to the principles involved. As referee Dempsey said to the Larruper after awarding the 20 round decision to the Basque Woodchopper, "Paulino did a better job of fouling than you did, Max!" Once Ali sat down in his dressing room, he was talking about how Foreman tried to thumb him. There are two heavyweight champions one should NEVER attempt to trade thumbs with, Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes. [LeDoux salvaged a hometown draw against Norton with a thumb, but then met the supreme master of heavyweight thumbing with Ali at ringside. Muhammad then tried to cheat his way to a win over an even greater thumb master than he himself against Terrell, by clandestinely using a double dose of Thyrolar as a PED, but even he couldn't out cheat Holmes, the greatest foulist of all HW stylists.]
Actually....George indeed did foul Ali with a thumb in the eye....he just did not try to do it...he was successful! If you watch the first seconds of round seven Foreman throws a jab and Ali cowers a bit...that's the thumb. No one noticed it from ringside and you need to watch the bout countless times as I have to pick it up. Ali covers, holds, moves a bit until the effects of the thumb wear off and then towards rounds end he resumes his onslaught culminating in the ko at the end of the very next round.
Foreman was out of his head for years over this defeat. The Jimmy Young loss can't have helped either.
What does everyone think about George's "moment of clarity" after the young fight? I've read his book but i was wondering if anyone knew anymore about it?
I agree. Even his punching technique looked awful in that fight, worse than ever! I thought his tactics were poor, too. That said, Ali was super sharp that night and his timing was spot on. I think the occasion got to George as well. He looked very tight compared to the Norton fight.