frazier prime 1971 fotc vs ali prime.

Hectic for Ali, frustrating for Frazier. Their 1974 rematch showed post exile Ali at his fastest, also at the same 212 pounds that he scaled during his 1967 peak. Prime for prime would see Muhammad do much less holding than in 1974 [indeed, he stopped Joe when Carlos Padilla disallowed Ali's holding in Manila], and more dancing. He did give away body shots though, and Frazier was the definitive body puncher. I don't see Smoke's hook having much success reaching his head, but body shots galore. Ali's right uppercut would be effective when they weren't at long range.

If Muhammad had never been exiled, I believe he would have successfully defended the title against Joe in 1968 or 1969 via 15 round UD, but Smoke would have been by far his most competitive challenger, and this would definitely set up yet another challenge by Frazier. By himself, Ali wasn't typically an electrifying boxer who could carry the ring action [Brian London and Cleveland Williams being noteworthy exceptions]. Joe always carried the action with his hustle, so this is a pairing and contrast in styles the fans would crave and demand more of.

For me, the Ali of Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell and Zora Folley takes it over 1969-1971 Frazier. The combination of speed, punch resistance and stamina would have been too much for Joe to wear him down within the championship distance. Muhammad seemed fine in the final round of Chuvalo I, dominant despite taking a substantial body battering from the rugged Canadian, so I don't expect Frazier's body attack to shift scoring enough in his favor to win a decision. But Ali-Frazier II in 1970 or 1971 with a never exiled Ali would have been an extremely anticipated and interesting return go. Joe showed with Bonavena II how well he could improve in rematches, and he'd adapt more for a second challenge of Muhammad than Ali likely would for a rematch defense.

 

Ali's prime happened against Cleveland Williams. Very few fighters would stand a chance against that version of "the greatest". And Joe is not one of them.

 

People talk too much about how severely compromised by his nearly fatal shooting Big Cat was, and not enough about how fast and energetic Ali was. Muhammad did not look like that against Terrell or Folley. In fact, of his ten title wins during the 1960s, his only comparable display of such an energetic workrate came against Brian London [although he appeared to also be starting out that way in Liston II before Walcott's blown call in mistaken deference to Nat Fleischer].

Cleveland was indeed a shell in terms of lost leg strength [thus punching power] and punch absorbing capacity, but his noted hand speed does look good against the champion. Yet, with his height and reach, his hand speed only allowed him to connect about half a dozen times. [This was about the same number of scoring blows the quick fisted but much shorter Jerry Quarry was reported as landing on Muhammad in Atlanta before JQ's cut prematurely ended matters.] Although much speculation has centered on how good Ali might have become during his exile years, it should not be summarily dismissed that Big Cat could well have remained his peak performance even if he'd remained active between 1967 and 1970.

Joe Louis made it very clear that his true athletic peak came against Max Baer, when he was still just 21, and it seems unlikely he would have produced any better performances after sage mentor Blackburn died shortly following Louis-Simon II at just age 59. [Had Blackburn remained healthy enough to actively continue training Joe through the war years, perhaps Louis would have made some more title defenses while in uniform between 1942 and 1946. Joe had already been in the US Army for nearly three months when he re-matched Simon. Having donated his first two wartime purses to the Navy and Army Relief Societies, he may well have been permitted to remain active by the government he now was in military service to, but being a soldier may have been a welcome distraction for the loss of Blackburn to him.]

Ali was three years older for Cleveland Williams than Louis was for Max Baer, so I won't dismiss the idea that Muhammad was as good for The Big Cat as he was ever going to get, athletically. Continued active competition through the exile years would certainly have maintained his athleticism longer, but I don't think any contenders would have been able to push him during that interval, aside from Bonavena [who he was already signed to fight in Tokyo on May 24, 1967] and Frazier.

With his activity level continuing at his 1966 pace through the remainder of the decade, he might have regressed with aging or physically over-matched "Bum of the Month Club" level challengers when not facing Ringo and Smoke. Ali-Bonavena in Tokyo was a great historical opportunity boxing so barely missed out on. While I think this would produce a lot more action from Muhammad than the first 14 rounds of his 1970 match against Oscar, I also believe a well primed 24 year old Bonavena coming in with a 27-3-0 record would have clearly been his most competitive challenger before Frazier. I think the Argentinian would have lasted the championship distance with more vitality than Chuvalo had done. [Interestingly, Bonavena was scheduled to be Ali's first younger challenger. In actuality, Muhammad would not defend against a younger challenger until Bugner II in 1975.]

 

Prime 68-69 Frazier beats prime Ali every time!

 

Some logic missing here.

He couldn't stop the past-prime, 71 version, out of the ring for almost four years save two tune-ups, but he would stop the 67 version ?



Ali takes this one IMO. The mid sixties Ali could have kept Frazier on the outside for twenty rounds if he needed to.

Frazier might even need a corner stoppage if both his eyes got cut or shut.

 

Cleveland Williams who was a "shot" fighter in every sense of the word?

 

Read the title of the thread ,it says ALI prime.

We never saw his prime it would have been during the nearly four years of enforced inactivity. No one said he would have destroyed anybody, if you cannot debate on the statements that are on the table don't make up your own, just don't comment..

 

Well, one would think that we should be talking about the prime Ali we did see.

 

Do you have learning difficulties? We NEVER saw Ali's prime. atsch

 

I'm talking about the 60's version of Ali, which is in fact his prime. Making assumptions about what could have happened in that time frame he wasn't allowed to box is simply idiotic, therefore I'd like to believe you're just trolling.

 

Ali had his last fight before his exile on March 1967 he was 25 years old do you seriously think he would not have improved over the next 3+ years had he been allowed to continue boxing?
I'd like to believe you know what you are talking about , but your posts clearly indicate you don't.

 

So making assumptions about what could have happened is the best thing to do? We've seen his younger days and for all purposes it should be enough, because of his absence for 3 years, to consider the 60's version of him prime.